Using the Enneagram for Better Communication with Hannah Fryer

Play Video

Hannah Fryer joins me to talk all about the Enneagram and the many ways it can help us communicate better in our relationships. Never heard of the Enneagram? No worries, we explain what it is at the top of the episode. Already an Enneagram lover? Hannah mentions the core longings and core fears of each type, which is perhaps my favorite part of the conversation. This conversation is filled with juicy tidbits to becoming more compassionate communicators.

Hannah also helps me make the final determination on if I’m type 7 or 9. If you’ve had a hard time typing yourself, the questions she asks me are gold.

Other highlights from this episode include Hannah’s obsession with car seat safety, and our discussion around the Enneagram types for Ted Lasso characters. 


Hannah Fryer is the founder of Brambling & Co. and a Certified Enneagram Coach. Regardless of the project or goal, Hannah’s guiding principle and primary focus is making the world a better place. Her core values are purpose and vision, and everything she does comes back to those two words. She believes wholeheartedly she was made to do this work, and she’s grateful every day to wake up to new opportunities and to use her gifts to make a difference in the lives of others.

To connect with Hannah:

Never miss an episode.

Alyssa Patmos 0:04

This is Make It Mentionable. I’m Alyssa Patmos and this is the show about being human in a world that encourages us to be robots. I invite you to join me as we journey through the mess, the magic and the mania in between. Because what we can talk about, we can manage. This honest conversation extravaganza includes free flowing conversations and high doses of vulnerability to remind you that you aren’t alone. No topic is off limits, and episodes are designed to leave you smarter, aka more self aware than when you came. I am so glad you’re here. Hello, hello, and welcome back to make it mentionable. I’m your host, Alyssa. And today I am here with a former client of mine and a friend, Hannah fryer. And we are talking about self development tools. And one in particular that Hannah loves and is an expert at is the enneagram so Hannah, thank you so much for being here.

Hannah Fryer 1:15
Oh, it’s truly my pleasure. I’m really excited. I mean, I like I said I could talk about enneagram all day every day. So I’m happy to be here with you today.

Alyssa Patmos 1:23
I would like to start with why what do you do what lights you up tell tell people watching or listening a little bit about who you are.

Hannah Fryer 1:33
So you know just a little bit about me one, one thing is I am a certified enneagram coach, which is work I absolutely adore it lights me up, it makes me happy. It never ever gets old. Because you know, all humans are different. All humans are unique. And you know, even though we kind of fit within one of the nine numbers, it’s a spectrum. And we get to exist as we are and you know, learn ways in which we can integrate and really grow and learn ways in which we can kind of avoid what you know, might be the as my therapists would call it, the irrational path of our anxiety or fear or any of the things that get into us. I also do strategy and culture consulting. for small businesses and nonprofits. I’m also really, really passionate about helping those groups get, get on track and make sure that they’re, you know, building their best business building their, you know, best nonprofit, and that they’re making a difference in the world. Because really, at the end of the day, that’s what’s really important to me. And as an eight, as a challenger. Justice is one of my, you know, my core core values and that the things that matters most to me. And so I believe that nonprofits and small businesses are the ones in the world, seeking justice and making a big impact. And I think the inia gram is a great tool to help everyone who wants to do that.

Alyssa Patmos 2:46
I think we should also share just as a fun fact, your obsession with car seats?

Hannah Fryer 2:53
Oh, yes. We can absolutely talk about that. Yes, sometimes I forget that. That’s the fun fact that is not common knowledge is that I am like insanely obsessed with car seat safety. And, you know, part of that is my obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety. But then the other part is like, I just love making sure kids are safe. And car seats are one of those things that it’s really easy to get it wrong. And it’s really easy to get it wrong and not know you’ve got it wrong. And so I’m actually a certified child passenger safety technician. And so anybody who I offer free car seat checks, because I want to make sure kiddos are safe in the car. Because I mean, I know, you know, we just moved but I had quite a commute before in about 45 minutes to take my kids to school. And that’s a long time to be in the car. And that’s a lot of opportunities for things to go awry. And my kids were actually you know, because I’ve had the best year in terms of cars. They were in an accident with me this year. And thankfully it was, you know, only cosmetic damage. But like it was a huge relief to me to know my kids were safe. And you know, I’ll never ever forget it because like really the only question my children had was like, Mom, are we still going to clean up and I’m like, oh, you’re going to camp like you’re the reason I had this car accident. But I know they were safe. And they were perfectly fine. Like no one was harmed. And you know, a lot of that is because I I put a lot of time effort and research into car seats. And so if you ever Yeah, like Feel free to hit me up about car seats, anytime anywhere, you can check my Lincoln bio, I will always help and make suggestions. And you know, one thing I do want to emphasize too, because this is just gonna get crazy is that like, although my kids ride in some more of the expensive car seats, there’s no such thing as like a cheap car seat that is unsafe, they all meet the same, you know, same standards as long as they’re installed correctly. And sometimes some of the least expensive car seats are some of the easiest to install. And so you know, never feel like you can’t, you know, make sure that your child rides safely because it’s super easy to do and it’s usually very affordable and There’s all sorts of options if you if you ever need help with that.

Alyssa Patmos 5:02
Talk about things that I feel like people don’t mention in routine conversations, I feel like that’s one of them, I’m sure like in parents circles, but at the same time, it’s, it’s something like you think you know what you’re doing, or you’re in a hurry. So I love that you do that, I think I always think that’s a fun fact about you,

Hannah Fryer 5:20
is and I kind of forget about it, because it’s so natural to me to do it every day, like, you know, but the kenzan. But, you know, and people will tease because I have 95th percentile, 97th percentile kids, and, you know, I’m really, really passionate about car seat safety. So my kids were rear facing until they were four years old, and even my own mother was like, their legs are going like to literally just stay that way forever, permanently crossed. But like at the same time, you know, they don’t notice they don’t kids fall asleep in weird places all the time in in weird positions. So it didn’t bother them a bit. And, you know, it kept them safe. So it’s a little known things that, you know, yeah, that I just get real excited about and go down a rabbit hole real easy.

Alyssa Patmos 5:58
So our research rabbit holes, part of being an eight, and then we’re going to backtrack, and we’re going to I’m going to ask you what that enneagram is for people who might not know yet but I’m just curious off the bat, like, sorry, go ahead.

Hannah Fryer 6:14
No, no, no, you’re fine. Um, you know, research rabbit holes can be something that an eight is really interested in, we have a direct line to the five, which is the investigator. And so they are, they are people who are going to take a deep dive and like when I am anxious, or I’m not feeling well, or when I’m not really liking my best self, I, I kind of moved to that five part of myself I was there all withdraw and I will start to just research because I’m going to find the way out of this problem, whatever it is, and and so that can definitely have to do with my number fives are known for their research. But eights have a direct line to five. And so you know, when I’m not doing my best, I kind of take on the Paranoid crazy qualities of a five and I say crazy in love. Because I’m you know, big mental health advocate because yes, that that little bit of extra insistence on getting all that information comes from that fives.

Alyssa Patmos 7:09
So for people who aren’t familiar with the enneagram, give us a high level overview of what is it How is it used, who was created by or some of the some of the history around

Hannah Fryer 7:21
it. So you know, enneagram has actually been around for 1000s of years, it’s an ancient tool that has kind of grown and developed and, you know, I in the way that I believe in and use it in practice, it’s very much integrated into you know, who you are as a person, and it’s not definitive of who you are, it’s not, it is just a guide. And it’s a tool to learn to grow. And what it does is enniaa means, you know, for five, I’m See here, I’m on my brain. And yeah, it means nine and Graham is chart. And so that’s literally the nine personality types that are on the enneagram chart. And you can see sometimes, I mean, literally people have been very automated with these thinking it looks like a satanic symbol, because it does have like some crazy stars, you know, but really what those are lines and directions and showing you the pathways that once you’ve kind of have options in terms of growth, and so we all have a little bit of every number in us, but then we typically have, you know, one main number and that really, you know, that really speaks to the core of who we are, and it talks a lot about it tells us a whole lot about our motivation, and why we do things and how we see the world not necessarily how the world sees us. So you and I may have the exact same response to you know, to stimulus to some sort of situation where we want to react, but we will respond to it based on how we see the world and even though it may be the same are the reason we responded is for completely separate and different reason. And I think that’s really interesting, because, you know, even in my when I was first learning about it, um, you know, one of the biggest pieces of advice I will give anybody who ever wants to get into the enneagram is do not type people around you, you think you can, you can’t. And it’s really because it’s about who they are, internally that you know, the deepest, darkest wells of our soul. And so I mistyped my own husband I mean we’ve been married a decade and I would have sworn to you from here to Kingdom calm, he was six and he’s the one and you know, when we when we read one of the books, and he was going through these because of course I have to use him as my guinea pig. He, he was like, no, that really doesn’t resonate with me and he started reading through the rest of the book and you know, a one made complete sense and it changed the way that I was able to look you know, not only as him as my partner, but you know as how I could respond and support him. And so that was really cool. And it’s like I said, it’s it’s intended to be a tool. It has been around for hundreds of years. It’s become a lot more popular here. You know, more recently, but it is you know, it’s something that has been developed over a long period of time and I you know, it can be used spiritually it can be used, you know, agnostically It’s not necessarily it doesn’t have to go one way or the other, you can, you can take it for what you, you know, for what works for you and use those tools to grow, you know who you are as a person. And at the end of the day, that’s what I really feel like it is a tool for growth.

Alyssa Patmos 10:14
I love that because so I mean, as you know, I’m certified in depth and driving forces. And so similarly, what I love about both the enneagram and, and desk is sort of the fluidity because, you know, we’re so obsessed with you as a culture, like we’re so obsessed with personality tests and finding out more about ourselves. But some of them I feel like they end up putting us into boxes and it’s it becomes this excuse to be like, Oh, well I’m this and so I’m this way. And so what I love about disc and and the enneagram is that it’s more no here’s a construct of behaviors like we all have all of them, but here’s the one that’s the primary showing up for you. And, and there’s fluidity like the connection to the other lines, like what happens when we’re not our best self, and what happens when we are our best selves. So from that perspective, can you talk a little bit about what’s the difference between the numbers or or give us an overview of sort of what’s happening what are some of the things that that distinguish one one from the other

Hannah Fryer 11:32
Okay, so each different type has kind of what I like to call our core longing our core desire our core fear and you know and then there’s also you know, childhood wounds and those are kind of the ways that we learn to differentiate what messages we either heard or perceived when we were children and so my my fun joke is you know that I’m I’m an eight and there’s a lot of jokes that like you really can’t be an eight without experiencing the little trauma like it’s just required but like you know, you’ll you can read some books and realize like we’re just this is just how we’re hardwired and you know how we respond to things based on you know, what we saw received You know, when we were younger and these are the messages we received and so each number received a different message and you know, for my example You know, I’m an eight and the childhood wound that childhood message that I received whether it was told to me directly or perceived was that you can’t trust anyone that you’re going to be betrayed and so you’ve got to take care of yourself and um, you know, and I know throughout my life there are people who are absolutely got my back and I don’t you know, but at the same time I have to, I have to train myself to believe it and you know, and I have to watch my own behavior to recognize whether or not I will safeguard or you know, um, you know, one of the things that you know you and I have talked about before you know, in terms of me being your client is fake vulnerability brilliant master a fake grown ability and I didn’t even realize it because I was too afraid you know, to to be truly vulnerable with someone until I knew they were going to be comfortable being vulnerable with me first and that’s not fair to the person that you’re trying to have a relationship or friendship or any kind of you know communication with really it’s very unfair to ask them to trick them into being vulnerable with you just so that you can feel comfortable around them and you know, so it’s it’s interesting to see you know, the different options of the different types and and how it affects us all differently because again, we’re a spectrum so you know, I can sit next to another eight and we will have you know, some really strong common themes I have a great great friend who’s an eight that lives here in the same community as me and so we’ll get together and we will like you know, okay, who’s hurt you we will burn them to the ground where are they and like I love the example one of them another friend that I have is is like his Ted last out I love Ted last though like I could watch that show. So

Alyssa Patmos 13:54
it’s okay, I have to interrupt I don’t want you to forget what you’re gonna say but I have this argument in our house around if we like Roy or not and I love Roy I love Roy and Geoff is not team Roy not like so I need to know what did you think of Roy

Hannah Fryer 14:16
Royce resonate and so I love Roy and I was having a conversation I love Roy like I love and I love his character development well and you watch because you know if you’ll want I mean not to get any spoilers but you will watch his character development and progression as he starts to really develop past that you know, bitter angry, you know, I will fight a small child just because you looked at me funny kind of you know, attitude to eventually getting to a place where like, Oh, I can process my emotions and I can have a conversation with someone without wanting to headbutt them or punch them in the face. And you know, it’s it is I can totally see parallels in my own life about what that looks like about how I had to kind of grow up a bit because I was apps salutely you know, for all of the you know, Southern life that I’ve lived where I was taught to paint the barn and you know put on a lipstick and make sure you smell more I was also the first one ready to absolutely kick someone’s ass if they messed with the underdog, or they mess with somebody who, you know, couldn’t defend themselves. And, you know, that’s a really common characteristic of eights. It’s like we can be, we can be a total dick. We want to be but we will literally lay down our lives for the people who make it into our circle. And you know it if you watch they’re really you know, the relationship with him and Kelly develop, you really start to see like, he’s willing to come back and had the conversation and that’s been something I’ve had to learn. I it happened to me just, like just the other night about having to come back to my husband and say, You know what, like, I totally overreacted to that I’m really sorry if I said something that hurt your feelings. You know, I this is where I was coming from and it wasn’t right the way that I responded to you and of course he’s accustomed to me so he just laughs because like, he knows I’m just gonna like get rent raving crazy angry. And like, because that’s my first response. Yeah, it’s my core emotion is anger. I’m happy I’m angry. I’m sad. I’m angry. I’m tired. I’m angry. I’m angry. I’m angry. Yeah, I’ve got it sorted out like what’s actually underneath there?

Alyssa Patmos 16:16
Yes, which can which can be hard to do Geoff and I had something that came up last night too. And I had to do the same thing like I had an overreaction and and I’m emotional like I talk with a lot of intonation in my voice he’s like cool as a cucumber all the time. Like not monotone but he’s just so chill and I experience my emotion and so we had something come up and I raised my voice when I wanted to feel heard and it that does not sit well in his body at all said I had to go apologize as well

Hannah Fryer 16:49
as Jenna completely

Alyssa Patmos 16:52
so circling back to why you brought up Ted lasso something about your friend and I think you were saying that like two of you can be similar.

Hannah Fryer 17:01
Yeah, we can absolutely be similar and be the same number even and respond differently, you know, depending on our own personal growth and development. And so I loved like, you know, I have a good friend who you know, I have a good friend who lives in this community that is also an eight and so she and I love to get together but like, okay, who are we? Who are we taking down like who’s doing something wrong and and, you know, most of the time, it is just a session to be like, I have to get this out to somewhere. But you know, some of us like eights are really open about their anger but we are in the anger triad with two numbers who don’t like to be open about their anger and so actually, my husband has a one and he’s in the anger triad too. But his shows up as resentment and literally if you were to ask him and I have like an art you know are in therapy and we’ve talked about the fact that you know, being angry to him is wrong, like it’s bad and but resentment doesn’t feel bad to him and of course, like we’re both like how you have to get to anger before resentment, but okay, like whatever you got to tell yourself feel better. And then every now and again, like he’ll just, you know, he he doesn’t even explode he just implodes and so he has a really hard time processing you know, that particular emotion because he thinks it’s bad you know, whereas we have nines who are at the other end of our anger triad and they would like to pretend everything is peaceful and quiet and calm and cool as a cucumber until they can’t anymore and then they they explode externally and and that’s okay like that we you know, it’s it’s part of the process of learning you know, whether or not you know how to process that emotion and recognizing like you know, to me it’s absolute second nature and nature to be work at like I will absolutely Are we allowed to cuss on

Alyssa Patmos 18:44
here? Yeah, you can pass Okay.

Hannah Fryer 18:47
I will ask this is an eight I will absolutely be like fuck you and the horse you rode in on and like I’m gonna come for you and your family all because you hurt like someone’s like my he like looked at my child Sonny like I will get you like or if you mess with my husband like I’m coming for you for the juggler and at the same time like it’s not always necessary sometimes that’s a bit much in terms of show for us and like if you’ve seen some of the I’m hoping I’m not spoiler alerting anything about Ted lasso, but like you can see like, where he’s like, Who’s Barnard? Right? Where am I going to go? Like Where does he live? Because we are going to go make him pay for hurting your feelings. And so that’s my natural response whereas like you know, I’m friends with you know, another couple under big joke is that she’s Ted Lascaux and he’s coach beard. And so like every now and again, like you know, they they they work really well together as a team, but they do it in very different ways. And so you know, she is the very enthusiastic and warm and exciting person and he is more of a like, a back and see it and like if you if you even you can see it even in like pictures of them on Instagram. They’re totally adorable. They are totally tagged and coach beard and then and then I’m rock, cat inside. even bought a shirt says more of a war than Ted.

Alyssa Patmos 20:05
That’s awesome. So okay, so I never actually heard that each number has a different childhood wound. And that’s super interesting especially given the work that I do. Yes. So I need to know more about this so, um, what are some of the other childhood ones like so mine I put mine up because I mean we might as well just dissect me on the show why not

Hannah Fryer 20:31
unkindly because it’s a beautiful tool. And as as Dr. Sharon would say, you know, the truth will set you free, but first, it’s going to really piss you off.

Alyssa Patmos 20:40
Sharon’s character this season was so amazing. I’m obsessed,

Hannah Fryer 20:44
but I love it. Yeah, the truth will set you free, but first, it’s gonna piss you off. And that is absolutely true. The inia gram if you do not feel like you’ve been punched in the face, it’s not your number.

Alyssa Patmos 20:53
So, So first, we can give sort of the high level of the names so type one is the reformer. Two is the helper three is achiever. Four is individualist five is investigator, six is loyalist. Seven is the enthusiast, eight is Challenger and nine is Peacemaker. So in my report, which I took before we we talked, I have four that are sort of high so for me, the enthusiast and the helper are both the highest and they’re 21 but the peacemaker and investigator come in tied at 18 underneath those and so I’ve heard a few different things I’m curious about your opinion on this I’ve heard that for women who show up with a too high it can be part of the cultural conditioning and so dissecting back like if we’re actually a to or if we’ve just been conditioned to be that good girl can be semi difficult. So I think I ruled out that I’m not naturally a two like I I am a helper but I think there’s a lot of things in the two that feels like good girl conditioning to me. Sure. And I think I also ruled out the five doesn’t totally resonate like it’s a version of me similar to you where it’s like okay, we search rabbit holes the precision and like the discovery there, but I think then I’m debating between seven and nine and I know this is something that comes up routinely for people like they’ll have a few top scores and you kind of have to read through it and and it’s open to you seeing which one resonates which I love I love tools that allow us to critically think and apply it for ourselves instead of just being this like here throw it at you and now it’s like now it’s my Bible in of personal development you know? Um, okay, so with that I’m very curious what are the childhood wounds of the seven and the nine

Hannah Fryer 22:57
Okay, so big issues with seven is that like, you are not going to be abandoned and and but it comes really from the the message that you heard as a kid is that like, your nurturing was taken away too early. And so like there was you know, whether that was, what again, it doesn’t always mean that like, you know, we don’t need to go back to our you know, our biological parents and scream at them because like, sometimes we’re just not equipped to handle you know, I am an A, I can promise you like, I’m just gonna go ahead and set up extra money for therapy for my children because like, I know you’re gonna we’re all gonna screw up a lot, you know, to some extent, but it’s, um, you know, the, but the message that they really heard is that you know, that they, they’re not going to be taken care of their needs are not going to be met. And they spend a lot of time running from pain and discomfort by there are FOMO people so there are like, I my brother in law, I believe is a seven I need to verify that and like and I’m an eight and so one of the things is going to know about wings is that like, we can kind of take on the characteristics of the numbers next to us when we’re with other people or we may have a more dominant part of us that comes out I have a really dominant nine wing when I’m teaching and facilitating and and I have a really dominant seven wing when I’m with sevens because I’m like, I’m all in we’re doing all the fun and crazy things. And then

Alyssa Patmos 24:19
can you explain what a wing is really quick? Oh, sure.

Hannah Fryer 24:22
Yeah, so um, the wing is the number on each side of, of your, in your primary enneagram type. And so you it so as with for me, a wing would be a seven or a nine for a, you know, you have a buoy, if you were seven, then you could have a six wing and an eight wing. And for a nine, they would have a one wing and an eight wing. And so you kind of depends on you know how that shows up. And some people are very static in their numbers, so they don’t really take on heavy characteristics of their wings. But more often than not, there’s a little bit of prevalence from one side to the other. And sometimes again, it’s circumstantial. As you grow, you learn to integrate, you know, more of the good parts of each of those numbers that are on each side of you. And so like I said, I use my nine wing a lot. And I, you know i, mediating is something that comes really naturally to me because of that nine wing, I can see a lot of perspectives, I’m able to kind of sort through things objectively without, you know, some people would say we don’t have feelings as as we do, we just cover them up with lots and lots and lots of armor.

Alyssa Patmos 25:20
Yeah, emotional suppression. That’s right.

Hannah Fryer 25:22
If it’s, if we don’t acknowledge it, and then cover it up, it’s not there. And you know, and nines, they know they have a different wound. And then in the sense that, like, the message that they heard or perceived is that you know, that their presence didn’t matter. And that their opinion is not important at like, and nines are so beautiful, and yet so difficult to type sometimes because they are really, so concerned with blending and making and creating harmony, that sometimes they just take on the characteristics of whoever they’re next to, they’re the kind of people you’ll have a conversation with, you will leave thinking that like, they are totally on whatever side it is you’re on are totally believe what it is you believe, and like, they may think you’re, you know, that your absurd opinion is stupid, but they’ll never ever say it out loud. And they’ll always engage with you as though you’re the most important person that they, you know, that they’re around, they’re super, you know, they’re, they’re peaceful, they’re chill, but um, you know, under a lot under that surface is that volcano of anger that they that they struggle to, you know, to wake up to, and so knowledge and usually it’s, you know, the, and it’s oftentimes that you’ll notice that they, they move along, and like maybe they only erupt every six months. And so you know, everybody around them is like, Oh my god, what just happened, because that, you know, they are totally level and even keel. But it’s because they believe that their presence is an important and that their opinions don’t matter. And you know, so that they go along to get along. And so it’s really important that you know that they learn that, you know, I actually do care where you want to eat, like I do actually care, like how you feel about this particular issue.

Alyssa Patmos 26:59
Okay, so this semi helped me, but I can see aspects of the wound. And each of them too. So if someone so one of the things about the enneagram is, is it’s long, there’s a lot of information in there, which I love, because you can, you can even when you get your own report, you can learn about what other types exist in the world, and then adapt, adapt your style in the presence of others, so that it makes it easier, easier for that person to listen, like, you know, communication is has to be the exchange of meaning. Otherwise, we’re just talking at people. And so when we can understand more of these dynamics, it allows us to communicate more effectively, because we can try on different ways of sharing meaning. So with that, it’s so weird that you’ve got a lot of information in here. And it can be sometimes hard to sort of navigate it and figure it out. If you’re not working with someone like you, who helps you break it down. So So what are some of the other questions that we could consider? And in this case, I’ll use it to consider deciphering my own. But what what are some of those other questions that we could use to decipher which one of these I am? So a lot

Hannah Fryer 28:10
of a lot of the good questions to ask revolve around motivation. And so you know, like, why are we choosing to do this? And so, you know, is that like a good question, you might ask someone who is trying to decide between a seven and a nine is like, do you never have an opinion about where you should eat? Or do you want to go to the restaurant that’s brand new? Which one is it? Hello.

Alyssa Patmos 28:36
It’s both that this is where I struggle we get so historically, historically, Geoff, Geoff’s like, Listen, where do you want to go to dinner? And I’m like, Oh, I don’t really care. Like I’m the more fluid one and other people generally speaking, I feel like are more particular than me. Which may or may not be true, I might actually just be hiding it underneath thinking that my opinions don’t matter. Maybe, I don’t know. It’s possible. It could be there. But then, but then I had I had awakening part of my healing journey in the past year has really been an awakening to my needs and wants. And I suppressed them for a very long time. It was very hard for me to communicate what I needed and what I want. I was scared of not getting that met. And so I i would i would let someone else pick and then and then I’d be okay with it. But I love going to the new restaurants like I am an explorer. I’m an adventurer, I’m like give me all the novelty. I mean, I’ve moved cities every five years It feels like and just like on a whim spur of the moment. So So what does that tell

Hannah Fryer 29:43
you? Girl it tells me that we still have some work to do and figuring out what your number is. And also you know, something to note too is nines and sixes are actually one of the most difficult to type because they are I mean sixes you know, sixes have an inner committee. So you know, usually that’s what determines because they’ve got a whole group of people in their head going like, are you sure that was the right choice? Like you want to do that? Are you an idiot? I think you’re kind of an Indian. Wait a second, are you actually an idiot? Are you like, should we get tested? Are we sure that we’re not an atheist, and they’re also scanning the horizon constantly, you know, for threats. And so they’re the person who literally can’t sit. Like if you were to go to the newest restaurant, they’re going to want a table where they have a view of almost the entire room, and they want the entrance and the exit, they need to know where everybody is, and they in their head have planned an evacuation situation. So in case something horrible happens, you know, that they can get all the people that matter to them out of the restaurant safely, because they know where the exits are, they know where the entrances are, they know where the bathrooms are, they know all the places to hide, just in case and like they’ve already figured out whether or not the table is bolted down so that they can use that as a shield. Like that’s how that’s and that all happens instantaneously in their brain, like they’re walking into a restaurant. And

Alyssa Patmos 30:56
I think, Stan that if we plan seating arrangements at dinners based on someone’s enneagram type, I feel like that would be highly effective for the competition. Because it so matters if you go in. So I have found, I don’t know, if you found this, I’m going on a slight tangent, we’re going to come back.

Hannah Fryer 31:14
Always we’re happy to go. But

Alyssa Patmos 31:17
I don’t know if this happens to you. But if I go to a dinner, and there are like two men, if they’re if if it’s two men on one side, and like me, let’s say there’s like a dinner of six, you know, forget what’s happening on the other side for a second, I feel like men have a tendency to always lean forward when they’re talking. And so if two men are sitting next to each other, and I want to be involved in that conversation, I’m like, I have to sit in the middle, I need to sit in the middle. Because my tendency will be to sit back and like I can watch you to interact, you both can lean forward, do your natural, I can think back. I feel like there are subtleties in our enneagram numbers that influence these sorts of things to like, Oh, for sure. I like to have my back, like up against something or like, not completely exposed. And so we usually choose the spot and the restaurant, like based on that for me because I’m weird.

Hannah Fryer 32:14
And Nope, you’re you.

Alyssa Patmos 32:16
Yes, I am. And that is a particular thing about me. Yeah. But um, I don’t know why exactly that came up. But it makes me laugh that a six like, has this has, has this very valid need based on who they are to want to be in that vantage point. And I think the more that people are aware of that and can understand it, and then articulate it to us. If I had a friend that was like, Hey, I feel more comfortable. If I can have an exit route. I’m like, great. Where do you want to say, I don’t care as much like, yeah, guide the way let me know. Yes, yeah, for sure.

Hannah Fryer 32:51
And, you know, it really does, that also comes back to the point you made to about like how we can care it women especially can carry a lot of characteristics of tos because we’re trained that way. It’s, it definitely can be that way. And it really could, I think that’s also could be an indicator of your type. You know, a nine would be one who would sit back and listen. And whereas an eight is like, excuse me, I’ll be sitting in the middle because I can’t understand what you’re saying. And I would like to be part of this conversation. Oops, I’m in charge again. Oops, now I’ve taken over and we’re talking about what I want to talk about like, like it’s you know, it really i mean that like that, that could be very indicative of, you know, you potentially being a nine and and, and like I said, you can still want that adventurous spirit and you can select that we have all these pieces of you know of numbers and when you you know, when you’re with if you if you’re a nine, if you’re with a one, then like, you’re probably like a little bit like my husband is a one. And they’re you know, they’re easy to type because they have one inner critic. So like your inner committee with the six, the inner critic lives with the one and there are constantly berating them and telling them that they’re wrong, and they’re bad and that they’re not good. And I realized, like, why am I yelling at my husband, he’s doing it all on his own. Mostly, I need to be like, actually, you’re doing a really good job. And you know, but you know, the downside of that is that he’s always helping me remember things, do things, you know, and one of the funniest parts, you know, of, you know, of our marriage that I’ve always found is like, with eights like we, we don’t necessarily have to be in control, we tend to take control because if we are in control, nothing bad can happen to us, and we can protect our safe people. So it really is a lot less about being in control, but we do not want to be controlled. Whereas like a one has a right way to do things. And like of course my husband who is our you know, money guy who only you know, he’s like thinking way long term about like, the meals we’ll be having when we’re at and not the meal that I want for lunch today. And so you know, he’s put together like a leftover thing which I hate leftovers. I’ve always hated leftovers. There’s a whole

Alyssa Patmos 34:57
they’re terrible plans over there. Okay. leftovers are crap.

Hannah Fryer 35:01
Yes, agreed 100% sure I will die on that deal like that. I will die on and, and like I don’t like that I don’t like you know I don’t like leftovers. I’ve never liked leftovers. There’s like three things and again plans. Like if I’m like I’m gonna make my like because like I have a great macaroni and cheese recipe that like I know I’m gonna want to eat that again. Well yeah, it’s gonna be good and I’m gonna like it and it’s only going to get a little bit crispier

Alyssa Patmos 35:26
you know, planned over or if you like, or if you like brown hamburger me and you make tacos one night, but you know you’re gonna make pasta sauce The next night

Hannah Fryer 35:36
so and then you’re like spaghetti. Yeah. Or like, whatever it is that you want to make. So yes, all fine. Yes, but no, no, not leftovers. But my husband is thinking like, we eat leftovers now. So we eat at the five star restaurant when we’re at and I’m like, okay, but we find a nice like middle ground. But he will put like, to him it’s the right thing to do is to save money now and so I will go to get in my car because he leaves before I do you usually. And he’ll have put like a bowl of whatever we had for dinner last night on the bike, and I will become irate because like to me, I’m like, you’re controlling me? Like you’re trying to tell me what I have to eat. Like, Fuck you. Fuck this. You can’t tell me what I’m supposed to eat. You can’t tell me where like, you know, you know, I’m just loot. I mean, I’m having this whole conversation in my head about like, What an asshole. He’s been by trying to make me eat this food. And he’s like, just trying to like do something like it never even occurred to him that I would think about his control. He sees it. It’s like, well let you know if you want it. I thought you might want it. You seem to like it last night. Like he’s, that’s all that’s happening in his brain. But of course, my eight brain is like, Are you trying to control me? Are you trying to tell me where I like it, like what’s going on? Well,

Alyssa Patmos 36:43
and this is why like our world is ripe with ripe rice. I don’t know which word I’m trying to say miscommunication. Oh, because we all have different models of the world, like my model of the world is completely different than just model of the world based on past relationships I’ve been in, like how I grew up like past experiences where I’ve been what I’ve experienced. And similarly that’s happening in any conversational dynamic. So we can say the exact same thing, and then two people are going to respond to it differently. And so any, I think any doses of clarity we can get about alternative models of the world, that’s how we become wise. In communication, that’s how we can become really powerful communicators in the room is when you’re open to, to these other models, like the person who’s the most behaviourally flexible, is going to be the best in the conversation, because they’re willing to adapt and molds are one is very obsessed with efficiency,

Hannah Fryer 37:44
extremely, extremely fast. Like and like very, like, efficiency is one of the most important things like they do not understand someone being inefficient, it’s a waste of resources, it’s not doing things the right way, you know, and to talk about, you know, ones have a really, really hard times sometimes with the enneagram, because they do believe they are right, that and that is the only right. And what the enneagram teaches us is there are there are nine very valid perspectives on the world. And that we can see the same, you know, just you know, just like, you know, artwork or anything else, like you know, we can look at the same painting and have completely different responses to it, you know, the completely different responses to stimuli. And so that’s actually really hard ones can be very rigid and accepting that, like, no, it’s okay to see things through a different perspective. But you know, their, their childhood wound is you know, that you are bad, and that there’s something wrong with you, and you are, you know, so while they’re ever present, when they’re really not healthy, they’re picking on the people around them gently helping them to be right and be better, you know, and when they’re, you know, and even when they’re healthy, they have to constantly fight that inner critic to say like, No, I am a good person. No, I do, I do good things, I am contributing to my community or I am a good dad and or I am a good you know, mom or sister or, you know, just human in general. And, and that’s, you know, that can be challenging for them. But they are very, very obsessed with efficiency and to the point where sometimes it can get a little as someone who’s married to one, you’re like, not everything has to be efficient, like

Alyssa Patmos 39:19
I am. So with you. I know I’m not supposed to type people. So we’ll have Geoff Take this. But his obsession with efficiency is comical. Like even walking downtown, we live we live in downtown Denver, we walk everywhere. It’s like he’ll pull out his phone to like, see the most efficient route to walk there. I’m like, we know all the streets like let’s let’s mosey this way or like, and there’s a there’s a I read a quote recently about the balance between like efficiency and beauty because a lot of times they’re at odd. And that’s like, artistic and creative, and I believe everybody’s creative, but creativity in terms of like art and poetry and like I don’t know, I I want to do things in a harmonious like, fun way. And that is not always the most efficient. No, I it’s efficient for meeting my need of wanting to be very creative. Absolutely. So it can be frustrating because I do not value efficiency at the same level as Geoff I value I love and appreciate that he is so efficient because if I need something done, and we need to know the most efficient route like you asked Geoff. Yeah, 100% that’s your husband too. Yeah. But and he’s gonna drive

Hannah Fryer 40:36
everywhere. We’re going like, yeah, whether it’s walking. Oh, yeah. Whether it’s, like, half the time, I’m like, Can we please walk like just to half a pace slower, like I have long legs, I’m doing my best. But for the love of all that is holy, like, I’d like to see it the mind surroundings like we don’t sprint there.

Alyssa Patmos 40:51
Yes, and this is where a especially in relationships like that, it becomes important to be super in tune with our needs, and to be able to ask for them, because it’s not that they don’t want to meet them. But I think this is the box that they get put in where it seems like they’re super controlling, or they’re super. Like, they have to have things that way. I don’t always think that they’re unwilling to change though, at least in in my perspective, like, he wants a way for me to get my needs met, to be able to articulate it. And then when that’s baked into the equation, oh, hey, this is important to me, can we walk a little bit slower, then it becomes efficient, like it’s like that transitions? And it’s efficient, because it’s like, hey, she’s happy. I’m happy. We’re still walking the most effective route. But these hills are killing her feet right now.

Hannah Fryer 41:38
Yes, exactly. That’s exactly it and like they and and they’re not, they’re not just compassionate, they can really appear that way. So can eights because we absolutely will. Like, if you come to us with your like, I have to find a kind way of saying this because I’m Roy cat. But like, if you come to me with your bullshit sadness, like I don’t care, because like and it’s not that I don’t care. Because once I get to know you, you are like it, I will care about everything. And again, if anybody touch it, like hurts you to me, like it’s the Miss Congeniality speech, if anybody wants to hurt my new friends, like I will come for you, like it is. But until then, like, Don’t talk to me about you know, your your bullshit, not real problem, when like, I was listening to a podcast right before this about, you know, the difference in media coverage. And, you know, the, the Gaby petitto, I don’t know how to say her last name. Yeah. And I bet but like the difference in media coverage, and her being missing work versus, you know, missing and murdered Indigenous women and women of color. And like that women of color are 10 to 12%, more likely to die by murder and the indigenous women, and that’s the number one cause of death is murder, like, and, you know, so don’t talk to me about like, how sad you are, that they didn’t have the brownie you wanted. If we have these problems, now, I’m able to put those things aside eventually. But if I’m in my justice mode, it’s really challenging for me. And I can be really rigid about that and saying what, like I said with ones when they’re in efficiency mode, and you are kind of deemed an inefficient member of the team. Like, sometimes you get cut. And sometimes I’m okay with that. And sometimes I’m not because I’m like, I’m sorry, could you not have waited like five minutes before? You know, you decided to cut me from the team? Well, I thought gave it over for, you know, give it a little thought for a second, or even when I express my needs, you know, sometimes it’s just doesn’t fit into the plan. And, you know, like, we’ll wake up on the weekends. And like, I already know the answer, like cuz he’s like, well, what’s your plan for the week? And I’m like, it doesn’t really matter, because I know you have a plan. So if you’ll just tell me what your plan is, then I’ll tell you if it’s gonna work for me. And we can negotiate around there because like, I already know you’ve made the plan. So like wire, why are you asking me what my plan is when we already know it’s cemented in your brain? And let’s just and then I because I’m the more flexible of the two of us like I’m comfortable adapting and moving around. And so it’s easier for me to be like, Okay, if those are the things you want to get accomplished, like, I’m good with that. But here’s the things I want to get accomplished. And I need to fit those in. I know, in your little figure out your puzzle, I don’t care how it gets done, I just get it done.

Alyssa Patmos 44:14
goshi ation is such a huge thing. Huge, huge, huge thing. And it’s hard if only one person’s willing to do it, but the but I feel like there’s so much insight in the enneagram about how to negotiate better and how to get people’s needs met because one of my favorite definitions of conflict is that conflict is just an unmet need poorly expressed. And so when we can then recognize Okay, if we’re in conflict, there’s an unmet need here. What is the unmet need, a lot of times it’s safety. For one, it sounds like hey, I’m, I’m having this shamer go off in my head. I’m having this judger go off in telling me I’m terrible. And like I need I need to understand that I’m a good person right now. And now we can Ultimately I think that’s someone’s own responsibility to heal that piece which I love the enneagram for two like it shows you your growth points it shows you where can I start to raise up what are things that I can can improve on or heal but when we can have compassion for that underlying need then the conflict becomes a way to get closer and to have more intimacy rather than rather than this this thing where it’s like you against me and we’re just battling it out and everybody ends up hurt and it’s painful and lasts for hours no

Hannah Fryer 45:37
yeah, no absolutely and as you know my patron saint Rene brown I mean she as she says conflict actually drives connection it doesn’t it doesn’t disconnect people when we’re able to be you know, when we’re able to have conversations about our needs and what they I’m more able to be honest with ourselves sometimes that’s really hard again, I’ve had to learn the really hard way that like I’m not actually angry I’m frightened or you know I’m not actually angry I’m really like I have my feelings hurt but of course I can’t tell people that I have my feelings hurt because then they’re gonna see me as weak and they might use it against me and I don’t want to be vulnerable I’m going to armor up and you know that’s and that’s not a healthy way to go throughout the world because I miss the opportunities for connection and for you know, for really connecting you know, and communicating with people in a way that is really meaningful because if you wander around the world you know in again thinking about it from your only your perspective it’s really really difficult to make genuine you know and authentic connections and you know, the intagram is again a great communication tool from that perspective. So it’s like we really under and I can’t tell you even from someone who’s not you again, you give me your port like the Statue of Liberty Give me your poor you’re tired you’re sick you’re hungry I have compassion and empathy for days. But then you give me your like rich white lady problem and I’m like, I do not care and like there’s literally nothing I can do to make myself care but I have learned through the inia gram that like I can respect that perspective. And I can understand that like okay, so I think this is stupid and of course I will I will Roy Canton out be like, that’s a dumbest shit I’ve ever heard in my entire life. Like I don’t even know why you’re talking and at the same time, you know, learn to say that in my head and listen with compassion and you know try for empathy because when I understand you know if like when I understand the childhood wound that sitting there behind that it’s much easier to have empathy for people because you’re recognizing it’s coming from a place of pain and it’s coming from a place that we’ve all experienced and you know, I I know exactly what it feels like to live in shame or to live in guilt or to live in and to be motivated by my childhood wound and you know, and I don’t behave the best that I should or I do you know, React poorly to things based on you know, the those particular circumstances for me and it’s I mean it’s completely unfair for me to not then want to turn around and use that tool to help me be more empathetic and understanding for people I’m talking to and you know, so I think it’s incredible that way and yeah, I think it’s incredible that way and you know, sorting out to again what’s at the base of it, is it you know that good girl conditioning are we are we actually twos or are we just told that we have to be and you know, I had the hardest time and my mom isn’t my mom is actually a two so she really is a genuine like honest to god too. And as you know, as an eight I actually have a direct line to to when I’m really healthy and I’m doing my best and I’m you know, my knees are getting mad, I’m healthy too. And you know, and the same for the same for twos when they’re doing when they can integrate and bring in some of those more assertive qualities of eight like they’ve got that direct line but like today I had a phone conversation with my mom and I I’m not sure what this system My sister is and again, I have ideas but again, I don’t believe in typing anybody I think it’s really unethical but like she called because they’re having to, you know, hire someone to care take for my grandparents and she needs to put together all of the information but of course her concern is like, I need to be direct and assertive, but I also want to be kind so she called my middle sister first. So like, there’s three of us, she’s the middle one. And she’s like, so she calls her first to find out like, Is this too harsh? And then she calls me like, is this harsh enough? like am I being directed? And like so that you know now she’s realized that like, okay, I can I can go and use that now for my advantage and know that like, I’m not trying to be mean I am just direct naturally and and a but I will tell you, like no, don’t bring that weak as shit to me because that’s not gonna work. And yeah, and the or no, this is a hard boundary and you know that and like we need to put it in. We need to put it in writing. It’s important. And you know, that’s, that’s hard for some people to do because like I said, eights and twos. I mean You know they lots and lots of women are twos but like truly like my mom is a genuine too. And so like I know every time I go to her house there is going to be my favorite snack and there is like and it doesn’t matter like I will literally be driving down the highway and decide like I don’t want to use a gas station bathroom and so I’ll be like I’m only 10 miles from my mom’s house but she just loves to ride off of a highway. And so I’m like okay, I’m gonna run over there and like I know whether she’s home or not like my favorite snack is gonna be there I’m probably going to have a present that was specially picked out just for me and like and like that’s just that’s just you know, her personality and it’s

Alyssa Patmos 50:38
here and there she’s at their best then are adding are adding this like delight they’re adding this magic thoughtfulness that some of the other types it doesn’t sound like they think in the same way and

Hannah Fryer 50:50
no not at all. It smell beautiful.

Alyssa Patmos 50:52
Yeah, that’s the beauty of it like especially when you’re creating a team having different people with the different types on there and that’s where it’s like learning to appreciate and see these things and other people changes your perception of how you can build culture to it was interesting because I have a friend texted me recently and when I first met him he he labeled me in his phone like think she’s strong or something it was like yeah, it was like a it was kind of a play on on him thinking I had a facade up like pretending you’re thinking I was strong and then it’s been interesting because

Hannah Fryer 51:39
he’s not now I want to hit them because you’re my friend and I’m like where are they going to go from now? Continue

Alyssa Patmos 51:48
so so then he’s had his own sort of unfolding journey though he’s had this his own journey of being able to be more vulnerable and opening up and like you know me I’m very much an open book like I talked about crying all the time on Instagram, like I think there’s a lot of power in that and so as he’s had his own journey of opening up and experiencing more emotion he sent me a text the other day and he’s like, I have realized how strong you are and you’re one of the strongest people I know. But he didn’t value it in itself a year ago and so it was he couldn’t see it it was impossible for him to see it in me because he didn’t value it in himself and so the more we can appreciate these other types I think it gives us so much more awareness to have a more colorful world of of the people around us and I love that

Hannah Fryer 52:42
yeah it’s incoming like I said that just the difference in you know of course I had done the therapy journey like I believe in using all tools you can possibly can but I can’t like I said I can attest 100% that it is revolutionized the way that I look at people and you know I am 1000 times more empathetic and consider it because now I see like now I see my mom’s childhood wound up like you know as a to your needs don’t matter and you know and so of course she’s incredibly thoughtful and thinks about you know, the things that are going to matter the most to you or that it’s going to really let me make a difference I have another friend who oh my gosh I mean I was just explaining that to my husband the other day about like I do believe in love languages to an extent like and one of my love languages is gifts Believe it or not I know it’s crazy but like it’s not about you know it was explained to him it’s not about the money you spend like you have to spend lots of money because you don’t get me gifts all year round and so then when my birthday comes and you forget it you have to find the inexpensive president because I need to know that it was a sacrifice and of course my money money managing husband is like oh it’s painful and so I don’t like but it’s not you know, you know and he even talked about viewing that kind of as a weakness it’s wrong to him to think of needing gifts and he said it’s not about the president like it’s about the fact that like my like I said my friend Lisa who’s a two she we used to work in the same office building and like I would walk in and like she’d leave 10 with like I’m so glad you’re part of my tribe on you know and like I still have all of those things I know that like there’s a few of these presidents that I will keep on my dresser that like my husband absolutely bought in the airport on his way home thinking Oh shit, I didn’t get anything from my wife but I don’t care because at some point he said oh shit i didn’t get anything

Alyssa Patmos 54:26
for my wife I thought well there’s so much and god yeah and

Hannah Fryer 54:31
so like I mean like one has a tiny little bowl and I think he was actually in Denver when he got it because it’s just a little it’s just a little pottery bowl but it’s in turquoise which is that color it’s ma’am and so I you know I love it and and it sits on you know it sits on my office shelf in like a place of honor to me because like that was a time he thought of me. And you know twos are just exceptional at figuring that out. Even when I don’t you know even if I don’t know that that’s something that was gonna make me feel special. They know, but then it’s also really important that they are learned to express their needs because it can be really easy to get resentful. When Yeah, I feel like I do. And I do. And I do. And I do. And no one ever remembers me. And you know, and it’s, you know, it’s a lesson that we all kind of have to learn, as you know, with my birthday situation this year with my delightful husband, who I adore and love, even though I mess up my birthday, it’s like, you know, I’m, you know, I’ve had to have this conversation, my mom, like, we’re grown ass women. If we decide we want a birthday party, like Have I ever called one of my friends and made like, I want to go have some drinks to celebrate my birthday? Like, do I have any friends? That would be like, no, that’s weird that you’re throwing around, like party? No, like, no, and they’d be shitty friends. If they did, they would not be invited anymore. Because like, it’s ridiculous. Of course, like, if somebody called me and was like, hey, it’s my birthday coming up. And I want to, like get together with my peeps to celebrate, you know, and have a drink, I would absolutely show up and be there. And so it’s learning, you know, to meet our own needs. But at the same time communicating like sometimes I could use a little bit of affection and love and appreciation to and

Alyssa Patmos 56:04
yeah, because if twos, I felt like they are, you put so much out and it’s effortless to you. And again, going back to the model of the world thing, like so in their model of the world, it’s effortless to think of people like that. So so then in conflict, when like interpersonal conflict, or relationship conflict comes up, it’s like, it’s like, they want the other person to mind right? A lot of times, like, correct me if I’m wrong, but no, that’s

Hannah Fryer 56:29
that’s a huge thing for twos. How could you not know? How could you not

Alyssa Patmos 56:33
know? How could you not do this for me? And then like, and then a person like a one if twos were the one that’s been I’m assuming it’s like, all the judger all the shame, I’m a bad person goes off. And they’re like, wait, but I’m not a bad person. And and I’m just don’t think like this. And I thought, yeah, it has to be okay, that I that I’m like this.

Hannah Fryer 56:54
And why do you need that? Right? Why do you need that? I don’t understand

Alyssa Patmos 56:59
why you need Yeah. And so loving over. Yeah. And this lobbing over this, like tossing over of a need is can be challenging. But when we look at where it comes from, makes it easier to understand it. So I love it. It’s so fascinating, because it gives us the tools to understand like, yeah, where are growth points? Where, where’s the shadow part as much as the as the strength part? So do you have any other questions to help me dissect if I’m a seven or a nine?

Hannah Fryer 57:30
Well, I just from hearing you talk a little bit, I’m hearing a lot of nine tendencies. At the end of the day only you can decide, like, you’re gonna have to research it, but I’m hearing a lot of things like I like to, you know, it doesn’t really matter to me, I don’t have like strong opinions about that, or like, and, and if you really think about that, is that actually true?

Alyssa Patmos 57:52
So the interesting part is, I think the nine has been a bunch of my conditioning. And so it’s interesting because I took this probably, I took it five months ago, and then reviewed it today. And five months ago, I looked at it slightly differently, but I’ve done I’ve done a ton of work in the past five months healing Why so? So when I looked at it today, it was it was interesting, because I resonated a lot, even with the struggle of the seven moreso than I had in the past. And I started to think that maybe the pieces that were more muted, like that was the conditioning and how I learned to adapt things. But at its core, I think there is much more seven there the question I have about sevens because anytime someone talks about like extraversion I am not the person who walks into the room and will like go to the middle of the party. Like I’m not really that like center of attention type person there. And I’m, and I’m great with strangers, like I am the most extroverted person on the planet with strangers. And with like, close friends, and then the middle ground of acquaintance, I’m like, I don’t know what to do. So does that fit into a seven?

Hannah Fryer 59:15
Oh, absolutely. And, you know, again, we’re talking about a spectrum. So like, not every seven is like, the life of the party, but they are avoiding pain and discomfort, and they’re covering it with new experiences. And so you know, if if that resonates a lot with you, it’s like okay, this has gotten hard. I don’t like it so we’re gonna move. Oh, it’s just gotten hard and I don’t like it. So I’m like, I can have this conversation or I can literally move away like I can. I can deal with this pain and this discomfort, or I can go by 15 things on Amazon to make me feel better. Or like I can put doubt in my mind and decide to take a weekend trip or like anything to distract From the pain and the discomfort because really at the end of the day, like I said that nurturing was removed early for them and so they don’t believe that their needs are going to get met. And so rather than dealing with that, and healing from, you know those wounds, they just run to the next exciting thing. And like they are the people who sometimes like and I again, I love sevens like theirs, they are fun, and they are you know, they bring so much joy to the world because they’re just genuinely happy people because again, they don’t want to be sad or unhappy. So they spend all of their time happy, but they you know, I I love them so much because of what they bring, but I also you know, want to hug them and say like, it’s okay, I know that like you’re you’re running from this conversation or you’re ditching me because you found something better and like and I get that and I’m not gonna have my feelings hurt because I know that that it’s not really because you don’t love or care about me it’s because like you’re feeling uncomfortable. And uh, you know, that like that might be a little bit more distracting or exciting than having a conversation with me and of course, you know, especially as you know, a certified enneagram coach and someone who just wants to dig I just love I mean I love I just love digging into people’s personality especially after you know really learning so much about the enneagram and so like nobody wants to just sit with me and let me like because I’m like Hmm Let’s figure this out. You want to talk about it? Let’s get into that what do you think of that? You know, what do you think is under there? What is going on? And so yeah, so those are some good questions you know to ask is like really, you know, what, what is the motivation? Are we trying to avoid pain? Or are we trying or we are you know, refusing to acknowledge that we matter and you know, that’s the big difference is you know, because they can have a lot in common and you know, and the other thing about nines is they can really fall asleep to their emotions and that’s something that I don’t know that I hear from you is that you experience your emotions really strongly and it’s very easy for a nine to just check out and you know, like how everybody like I had you know, a day the other day where I just wasn’t feeling it just wasn’t feeling life in general and I totally tapped into my nine and I laid on the couch and I Netflix and by myself I so I can’t say Netflix and chills I was alone but I literally in the status and some Netflix on my couch because like I just needed to know for a minute because you know, I was working through some things and you know, we’re and that’s normal, but for a nine, they kind of live there and that in that numb numb space and like I said, it’s really only till you know, something finally breaks the camel’s back that they will have an outburst or be angry whereas the seven is going to be more vocal about their emotions or they’re going to be you know, a little bit more not necessarily spontaneous but prompt in their response to you know, to stimuli. So it’s not always that they are like, you know, because people will look at them and you know, some people will call a seven a flake and I think that’s really crummy to say but because again, like they if they’re not healthy or they’re dealing with something really hard, like and you’ve invited them to dinner and then they get text you five minutes before they’re going to be there that like I found a better thing goodbye. Like it’s because what they weren’t ready to face you. They know you knew them. And they couldn’t, they couldn’t right then and it has and it’s not about me. Like that’s the thing I mean like it and that is the other wonderful thing I think about the perspective is like learning that like what other people think of you is none of your damn business because like it’s really not why anybody does anything, they’re not thinking about you. They’re thinking about what’s happening internally,

Alyssa Patmos 1:03:42
right like the one of my favorite things I learned as I was going through NLP training is you know, you judge the behavior, not the person judging a person is futile because it comes from all of these other beautiful things, these painful things that have happened in their life and so if you judge the person rather than just like, hey, this behavior, this behavior was kind of crap and it influenced me in this way. Like are you willing to change it? That’s a very different conversation than like, you suck i can’t believe you’re flaky.

Hannah Fryer 1:04:13
Yeah, and you know, a previous version of me as an eight we’re full of freaking judgment and we’re like of course you know, loyalty is an authenticity is incredibly important to us so like you digit dinner with me. Fuck you. Like how dare you? How How dare you flake on me I would never do that to you because like to me once we’re like, I mean like literally when you’re in you’re in like it’s like the mafia like you’re in forever and like I will, I will like totally show up and beat up a small child for making fun of you or whatever it is that needs to be done. I will pull a full ROI cat like get out the poster board and pay someone off. I mean, like whatever it takes, like in order to make it right and to protect you know, the people that are important to me because you know, at the end of the day, again, my childhood wound is like you know that you can No one is going to be there you’re going to be betrayed and so I my motivation then you know all of the work that I do is been to like I’m gonna protect people who can’t protect themselves because at the end of the day I felt or perceived that no one protected me and you know it’s real and so when we look at like you know we’re I can’t for example if Geoff thinks he’s an asshole maybe we think about the fact that like maybe like Roy didn’t have anybody to protect it and so he is he gets he makes himself big he makes himself strong he makes it he wears lots of black I just now noticed that fun parallel you know there’s lots there and you know and then there’s you know, other numbers we haven’t talked about today you know, they just have you know this they have the beauty and the heartache that goes with with learning about who we are and again as Dr. Sharon would say the truth is it is absolutely going to set you free and it but it is going to you know piss you off first and so when we read your na gram and like I said when you when you read it and you’re like oh my god I am the world’s worst like then that’s a pretty normal response to finding out your number unless you’re a four because four is just generally they love their emotions and they actually are really comfortable and melancholy and they’re my they’re not my favorite I guess there is no such thing as my favorite number I think that about every every number I’m number they’re my favorite number that but they’re also beautiful and you know in the way that they’re you know that they’re created and fours are they’re really big and getting into their emotions and so like they are like will constantly be like I wish I was like you Oh gosh, I wish I was in a or gosh I wish I was a six or wish I was above and like they’re the only ones who in perpetuity the rest of us kind of settle and we’re like okay but like but fours have that internal monologue that there’s something there’s something flawed about you can’t fix it there’s no it’s never going to be repaired there’s always going to be something wrong with you and you’re never gonna fit in like fours feel like the they’ve been adopted like always like because they just don’t quite make sense with their family they don’t quite make sense with everyone around them you know they can have some really strong and assertive tendencies but it you know, but they are not afraid to explore their emotions they’re not afraid to like really get in there and they’ll be the person who will absolutely swing from like full still Magnolia is like laughing and crying at the same time and you’re like I don’t I don’t know what to do

but they know exactly what to do with that because they live they they really value and live in their emotions and you know threes are another good example of like we were just building a team I’m telling you like a zombie apocalypse team have every one of the numbers like you’d have everything covered I need an extra couple sixes probably because like they like even on your you know on your team sixes is one of the most common numbers like they are bad ass because like some see them as you know the negative naysayers but like I see them as the people who are literally looking for every possible like pinball and they’re they’re not bringing it up to be Debbie Downer you know or Dani downer or whoever you know Pat downer I don’t know they they’re doing it because they want to protect you and they are going to look for every possible hole and plug it and so you know when we can see that as you know a form of them trying to protect your team as opposed to them being a negative Nancy then we can recognize like Oh thank god you’re here and you know and we can change the way that respond to people you know and threes can be frustrating to some people especially and yet force can find threes really frustrating lots to find three is very frustrating because they base everything on achievement and you know their their hidden message their hidden loon it’s like you’re only as good as your last accomplishment your worth is based on what you can do and accomplish and not on who you are as a person and so they’re you know, they’re excellent again like one you can hand them a project and no it is going to be done it’s gonna be done beautifully and at but at the same time the next the next question is like okay, what’s next? Right like they can’t celebrate or value or appreciate that they are really accomplished human beings. And you know because their value is not you know, it’s so tied up and you know, what was my next accomplishment? What’s my next goal? I’m trying to think of the numbers we haven’t covered.

Alyssa Patmos 1:09:22
I think I think we’ve touched on all of them except for possibly we talked about five in relation to you and me at the beginning when we hadn’t gone into as much so so what is the facts The facts are interesting. They are I’ve had a lot of fives in my life. So so the investigator listing scope. So one

Hannah Fryer 1:09:39
thing that people don’t realize about investigators and the I think is again, it’s a hallmark characteristic to tell you for sure this is you if you they feel very much like they have a set amount of energy. So like they start each day with like, you know, say I start every morning with 100% in my battery, they feel very much as though they already start off at 75%. So like they’ve got less energy than the rest of you at anyway. And then they’re very careful about where they use their energy. And when they withdraw, they like, I know that, like, I have two wonderful friends who are fives. And like, they literally I know about them that like, they’re going to go do something extroverted, they’ve researched the crap out of it, they know, they know their stuff. I mean, like, if you need to know something about a five, and like, you’re like, it’s like, if you were ever just need someone to be your, like, go do the rabbit hole digging, like, if you know that, then you want to send a five, because they’re gonna come back with every piece of information you could ever find. And they might visit the Library of Congress just in case like, they might have missed something important, you know, they’re gonna know all the things, but then they’re going to need to take a nap for three days, because they’ve used all of their energy. So, you know, it’s not even that they don’t, they can’t be extroverts. It’s just that they only have so much to give, and so like there, but it’s also very important for them to feel included and loved. And so like, I know, one of like, and she and I have talked about this, one of my dearest friends is a five and like, She’s like, I want to be invited, I’m not coming, I’m gonna come and participate for as long as I can, and then I’m gonna have to go home. And like, and that’s okay. Like, I just had to know because like, at first I was like, you’re missing out, you’re missing out, I want you to be part of this and not realizing that, like, they’re done, they’re out of energy. And, and they, they got to go into energy Converse conservation mode, or they have to, you know, to refuel, and that looks like sleep, it looks like vegging out, it looks like you know, checking out and watching TV, whatever that person needs to do. They need to be able to replenish that battery and, and their energy, but they’re, you know, and their, you know, their, their wound their core childhood messages that their presence matters. Like, it’s learning that like, No, actually, it’s important that you’re here. And we want your input, because they’re not going to be necessarily the first person to be, even though they’re the expert, probably on every subject ever, you know, even over they, you know, they’re definitely the people who know the most about the most random things probably, and you know, they’ve got minds like soul traps are brilliant. But they, you know, they’re not necessarily going to be the first person to speak up, like, they’re going to measure the room, see who’s around, he sees who knows what. And you know, when they see you start to veer off, they’ll course correct you, you know, or help you, but they’re not going to necessarily be in your face about all the information that they have. And so they can come off as very aloof. Mm

Alyssa Patmos 1:12:39
hmm. My mom has some of these tendencies, because she is she’s brilliant at managing teams, but she doesn’t. She doesn’t always like take full ownership of that she lets other other people do it and just sit in the background. She has all of these ideas, and she shares them, but she’s gonna go she’ll share them like one on one and a lot of ways. But when it comes to being in a table, she’s like, I don’t need to raise my hand. People don’t want to know like so some of those tendencies. Were were resonating with me when you when you were describing that.

Hannah Fryer 1:13:12
Oh, and they’re also the Kino. I know. They’re the kids who like could have been teased because they’re like, Oh, I know the answer to that and here’s this and here’s that I mean, like I you know, as an eight I have my own weird five tendencies. I mean, like, you know, when I am not well, I assure you like there is, you know, another weird Fun fact is like, I’m a huge Star Wars fan. I’ve always been a huge Star Wars fan, and I will nerd out and like it because it’s very calming to me like because there’s, you know, it’s got a whole universe, there’s things like, I know what all the different color lightsabers mean. But like, as a kid, you know, they they might have been the one who was like, I totally know the answer. Bla bla bla then they heard Oh my God, why are you so weird? Why do you know that like, Well, you know, they, there’s all sorts of opportunities for them to be shut down. And, you know, or not acknowledged, especially as women. I mean, that’s just, it is just the truth. You know, and, and it’s and it’s hard. And, you know, being even an eight woman is hard, because, you know, there can be you know, being a one woman can be really hard because we’re tend to be more assertive and direct and, you know, as, as women that’s looked at very differently than it would be, you know, if I’m a man, I’m assertive, you know, but as a woman, I’m aggressive, or I’m rude or bitchy, or, you know, and like, and I kind of really adopted that as part of my armor. You know, before I had done the therapy work that I needed to do and the healing and the recognition of like that, you know, vulnerability is not I really wore that, like, I am a bitch as a badge of honor. And like one of my friends gave me a calendar one year that says, like, you call me a bitch. Like, it’s a bad thing. Like, I mean, because I had totally embraced that because I realized there’s nothing I could do about the way I was going to be viewed and I could use it for good. And, you know, but now I know that I can be, you know that I don’t have to be in your face, too. be powerful and that I can be assertive and kind at the same time, you know, I don’t have to do it in a way that you know that that pisses people off or upset the applecart and that sometimes it’s okay to use honey instead of you know, yeah vinegar and I’m worried I was normally I’m like I’ve got a gallon bucket of vinegar and I’m going to doubt see. So

Alyssa Patmos 1:15:22
I think I like about this so much for those of you watching the sun in this window is killing me now. It is time I keep going blind. I’m so

Hannah Fryer 1:15:32

Alyssa Patmos 1:15:34
The other thing the other thing that I love about it is you know, I mean you were talking about excavating earlier and you know, I do the same thing you’ve been on the receiving end of my excavating So, um, but one of the things that always comes up in coaching is is people being able to accept themselves fully like it’s very hard to change something until we’ve accepted it in ourselves and so this as a tool seems like a way for people to see more sides of themselves and accept it not as something not as something that hasn’t has to be shunned or fixed right away but like hey, this is okay, this is a tendency that is normal throughout humanity, and I have some of it and how can I accept this in myself and then because once you get to that point, then you can look at it and say, okay, like hey, this isn’t really serving me in the best way. So now what do I want to adopt or what do I want to shed to to switch it up some and I think that’s super powerful. Absolutely. Yeah. I don’t know if you caught my face I think I have come to a conclusion by the way throughout this conversation so I think the seven is is truly accurate I think a lot of like the conditioning stuff that I’ve had to drop came from the nine but the seven the seven resonates and and it’s interesting because sit learning to sit in discomfort has been a lesson doozy of a lesson. It’s I’m telegram I started telegram community and I wrote about sitting in discomfort two days ago. And the strength of it. Because I know like I’ve had to learn to sit in discomfort, but there are times definitely when, like, you know moving. It’s like, wait, I’m done with this chapter. I am literally physically moving to a new city like tomorrow. And then you’re I don’t know that you saw my face. But when you were talking about fours, just like sitting in melancholy. Oh my god, that sounds like my worst freakin nightmare. on the planet. No way in heck. Melancholy, no way. I respect that about people who do that is no. And then I and then the third thing because I think we can find a lot of the things in the in the shadow side. I get this really uncomfortable feeling I have for years. I can’t always predict what situation it’s going to come up in. A therapist once called it social anxiety. I’m like, No, this is so much deeper than social anxiety. Like I don’t have social anxiety. But, and this is like, this is it’s this feeling. I just feel massively uncomfortable. And it will come up at times. And then I freak out like I want to crawl out of my skin. And those Those are the words I use and I feel like what you talked about, that resonates with seven

Hannah Fryer 1:18:37
absolutely will and then on top of the fact that you talked about like you’re more comfortable, like you’re an extrovert with strangers, and yet and with your people who are close and safe, but those people who are that in those bad acquaintance category, you’re like, um, you know, just enough to cause me pain. Like you know, just enough to be a pain in my ass like, or to make something uncomfortable. And so it makes complete sense that you’re like, I can have a conversation literally with someone like sitting next to me on the plane, you know, or you know somebody or I can have those deep dark conversations with people I know and love and trust who I you know, that will that will keep my inside uncomfortable feeling safe. But those people in between, you know, that, that they’re wildcards you don’t always know and you know, you haven’t had the time to get to know them well enough. You’re not sure if you’re willing to spend the time to do it, because that might be uncomfortable and there might be something better to do over here. So like, man, we’ll just stick with it. We’ll stick with the friends that I have and strangers

Alyssa Patmos 1:19:40
Yes. And my son mom recently she called me aloof. She said other people might perceive you as Oh, I should correct that. She didn’t call me she said other people who don’t know you might perceive you aloof. And I have a little like annoyed at first because I’m like, Wait aloof, like I thought aloof meant like, you know, like indifferent. And so I just had to look up the definition and it’s You know, emotionally reserved, and I was like, Okay, yeah, I’m with you because like, right before we hopped on, like, I posted this Instagram story, because I was like, okay, sometimes I need to cry. I feel like I need to cry. I’m moving through something. But the question is I have two podcast interviews. Do I want to ruin my face? I don’t want to have to redo my makeup motional suppression in the sake of preserving my face, or or am I gonna let it cry and process it? And so I have no problem sharing that stuff publicly. I’m I walked out and told Geoff I was like, the whole Internet’s gonna think that I cry all the time. But for me to share that with someone in that middle ground. Mm hmm. Oh, hell no.

Hannah Fryer 1:20:48
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. Yeah. And, you know, you and you share that a lot with fives. They’re often always, you know, also seen as aloof, you know, be and it’s not because, you know, like, my, my dear friend that, you know, that I’m talking about that. Like, she always wants to be invited, but she’s not ever going to come. I mean, like literally at one of her she was telling me that she’s been a mentor of mine. And she was telling me that like one of her first jobs like a woman who she’s not dear friends with, like, dear friends with first culture, the ice queen. Because, like, they’re so they’re so observant, and they’re so aloof that like, they, you know, or they even like those, like, I have a friend who is really, I mean, I think she’s a social media influencer, this is coming from the person who like hates using social media, because again, I might be vulnerable, and that’d be scary. And so I’m, I’m gonna get there someday, I promise it’s just little by little, but you know, she, she doesn’t always come off as the same person. Like, if you were to just approach her and you know, she’s had a public journey with some health issues, and some things like that. And so people feel like they know her in a way that maybe she definitely does not reciprocate. She, of course, has never met them before. So they’re like, you know, they know, they know her story, they know what she’s experienced, but they’re like, Oh, I don’t know how, like, people have a funny reaction to her because she’s a five. And so her natural tendency is again to like to take a moment and like, when we, you know, meet or have trips together, I mean, we we have, we both acknowledge that, like, there’s going to need to be some time set aside for you to recharge. And so like, nothing is ever planned in the middle of the day. Like, we might have lunch plans, or brunch plans, we might have dinner plans, but and sometimes it’s literally like, I’ll get a text from her hotel room over and she’d be like, you want to come over and like work on this, but like, we’re gonna sit in bed and do, we’re gonna, like, you know, we’ll, we’ll work on it, but it’s going to be quietly and it’s going to be with only the people who she can be herself with them are charged with and so like, we just know, those things get built in, because those are the needs we have, like, imagine what we could do, if we brought that same level of awareness and understanding of people to like our work life. And to I mean, like, think of the level of productivity because I mean, like, for me, I know that like I, I just have days when I’m not able to be really creative or productive. And, and it’s ridiculous that like, I should think of myself as like, I need to be working eight to five and you know, you know, I’ve talked about this, like, it’s, it’s a hard mentality to get out of, but then recognizing that, like, when I am creative, I’m literally explosive about right, like, I get more done in four hours than most people get done in 40 hours because like, once it comes to me, like I can’t stop and like I will go literally until, like all of its left, and you know, it’s been exercised from my body. But you know, that’s just how, that’s how I worked. And you know, and eights are also known for pushing ourselves way past a healthy point of, you know, working and so like, you know, I may literally work for 48 hours straight, not healthy, not a good thing got to work on that, but at the same time, like that’s, you know, that’s the kind of creativity I experienced, and you know, other types can be that way too. And if we had that level of understanding, like rather than staying like okay, I need this done end of day, like you we think about our deadlines earlier and say like, I need this done after your next creative burst, like I need this done after, you know, or like knowing that like my, my most productive time is from 10pm to 2am. Like, then that does not fit anyone’s idea the conventional work schedule and I’ve had to learn all sorts of techniques about like scheduling emails and doing because like, nobody wants an email from their boss at two o’clock in the morning because they they’re like, then they feel bad. Like why am I not up? Like, why? Why is she working at two o’clock in the morning? Am I not doing enough that I should be doing like no, that’s just when I’m most productive,

Alyssa Patmos 1:24:43
but also being able to own that like, you know, if you’re working with a new client, like you don’t have to send it to in the morning, you can come work around, but if it’s an intimate team, it’s like saying like, hey, like owning our experience owning what’s true for us. There’s so much power in that and people don’t do it enough. And it’s because we Trying to accommodate fit into all these other freaking boxes, instead of recognizing that like, all of us are different, we have different models of the world. And hey, I’m almost productive from time to time in the morning. So I know it doesn’t fit in traditional boxes of professionalism, but like, that’s when you’re going to get an email from me, you don’t have to do anything with that. And then that is the piece though, where people have to be able to take you at your word for that and not and like, that’s where their own stuff is gonna come up around, you know, people pleasing in the shows, and all of that. So it’s all it’s just so fun being human, but at least it

Hannah Fryer 1:25:34
is well in the pandemic has been an incredible study in that. And the terms that like some of us who work in who who have worked in traditional fields, they’re their bosses had no choice but to adjust to the fact that like, we’re not going to be in the office, we’re not going to be we’re going to be fitting in a load of laundry, or we’re going to be taking care of our pets or there is going to like I’m cannot tell you how many times my three, you know, she’s now four, but my three year old zoom bombed me, like in the middle of work, I mean, it’s just gonna happen. But it turns out, it doesn’t impact my ability to be a professional, and it doesn’t impact the work that I’m able to produce. And so, you know, I’m really interested to, you know, in terms of humanity to see what life starts to look like, as we go back. You know, I mean, I know that there are several offices of that are just, they’re just never going back to my office. Like they’re completely letting go of their space and recognizing that, like, if we allow people to be their best selves in a way that’s most productive for them, like we get the best results, even if it doesn’t look like the traditional nine to five work day. Yes. And plus studies tell us you only get three hours of work out of someone who comes in, like, hey, eight to five anyway, so why why?

Alyssa Patmos 1:26:47
Yeah, I I’m, I’ve always sort of been I can train about those things that I mean, I started freelancing right out of college. So I’ve never had to go into a traditional office, I’ve gone into clients when i when i would work with them for multiple weeks at a time, but I my my definition of professionalism, and it cracks me up. Because I mean, my dad is obsessed with professionalism, like he would have never gone into a client’s office, not in a suit. And I’m like, I want to be able to wear whatever I want. And I think professionalism just starts with being able to have a respectful conversation. I like what’s gonna get in the way of you being able to have a respectful conversation, like those are the things that aren’t professional to me. Most other things fall into the category of that. Yeah. So I have kept you past the time I told you, I will keep you because I could talk to you all day long.

Hannah Fryer 1:27:39
Same, same. Forever. It’s fine. I don’t have to pick up my kids. So like for like another two hours. So good. So the world’s longest YouTube.

Alyssa Patmos 1:27:50
I love it. Well, we’re not going to talk Joe Rogan, because you know, it goes for like, eight hours sometimes. So and

Hannah Fryer 1:27:55
I’m good, honestly. Yeah. He can go on all he wishes.

Alyssa Patmos 1:28:01
Yeah, I agree. So, um, okay, so we’ve talked about what the enneagram is, how, how you can use it, how you can use it for yourself, and how you can use it to understand more about people in the world, whether that’s in your personal life, in your romantic relationships at in the workplace. So, so as we’ve been dissecting which type I am throughout this entire thing, so once someone knows, like when someone knows, okay, I’m, I’m a seven. So I love knowing that childhood wound because that gives me a place to say okay, here’s the here’s the piece that I need to heal, because this is leading to my behaviors in certain areas. So aside from that, though, what can we what can we start to do with the strengths? Or what’s the recommendation once once someone knows their type? What’s a good way to use it? I know we talked about being able to own your needs more, but what what are some other things? And then what’s something that I could take away? now knowing I’m a seven?

Hannah Fryer 1:29:14
Well, the first thing I always want to tell people because again, when we kind of figure it out, we will see the shadow side of ourselves a lot easier than we see the beauty that light comes from our number. And so the first thing that I would love to tell someone, anybody who’s interested in the enneagram is like, let let that part go for a minute, let it go, let’s just read the let’s just read the good part. See the beautiful things that we add and when we’re ready, then let’s approach you know, the healing and figuring out exactly what it is that we need to do to become the best version of ourselves. You know, and then there’s so much material available. I tend to kind of stick with a couple of, you know, areas that I know are well researched. So like you know, the ready test is my favorite but it’s just a tool again, it’s it can’t necessarily predict exactly who you are, especially if you you know you’re not exactly sure how you respond or we’re conditioned to respond to things in a specific way. You know, we can have some things pop up that may not necessarily be true to like our core. But you know, there’s, you know, do some research reach out, there’s tons of online communities who are interested in, you know, in learning more about the inia grams I love, I mean, of course, I’m an eight. So I love ru das enneagram on Instagram, like, it makes me laugh every single time and it kind of takes the sting a little bit out of like, some of the really crappy parts of my personality that I know I’ve got to work on. But like, I feel like I feel seen without feeling like called out and shamed. And so you know, reach out and think about it from that, you know, the humerus perspective, and then, you know, really look and see, you know, when you do some research there, there it is, like, almost infinite in terms of how much you can learn and like, I truly believe it’s one of those things that like, the more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know. And so you know, even though I’m a certified enneagram coach, like I literally learned something more every day because, you know, there’s so much, you know, we just went over like an absolute, like, you know, flyover view and you know, we didn’t get into triads, we didn’t get to any of the other things like that. And there’s just so much that can help you in terms of processing your emotions, and, and recognizing them if you can’t figure them out, if you’re like, you know, again, I’m a great example of like, everything comes out as angry, I’m happy and it still comes out as angry. Like, sometimes then I have to be like, okay, no, and now like I’m able to much easier Express like, joy or admit my own mistakes. I never wanted to do that because that was something that would made me vulnerable to somebody using it against me and be like, you know, what, that wasn’t okay, I shouldn’t have reacted that way. Or, you know, finding ways to share you know, and be vulnerable, so that you can connect better with other people. But you know, the, the big piece is, you know, just dig in and find something that feels good. And, you know, like I said, I tend to stick in the more like, I love the renal Hudson, you know, tests and their books. Father, Richard Rohr, he is spiritual about it, but he has a lot of really incredible insight. A really easy starter book for that lots and lots of people really enjoy is, is the road back to you by Ian Morgan Crone and Suzanne’s to do it. And it’s a circle because this That was my first introduction to the enneagram. So if you have like, since we’ve already gone over, I’ll just tell you my fun side story of like, it was because you know, what, actually a four is who introduced me to the enneagram. So my husband’s aunt who introduced to me and then I found a few other people in my lives. One was a seven, and a two who have like, you should really research this. And of course, I’m like, Uh, huh. Yeah, one more personality piece of bullshit. Sure, whatever, whatever. And then, you know, I saw I’m like, finally, somebody literally gifted me the book. And I’m like, Well, fine. Like, I’ll open it up. And then it literally, like starts with Eights. And we’re like, we know, you think this is dumb, this is just another personality test, we know, you’re not going to wait for your number, like you’re going to get to one and be like, this is dumb. And this is not relevant to me. And so we’re going to start with you, because we know the ones are going to follow the rules. And so they’re fine with being at the end. And you know, nines think they don’t matter very much. So they’re cool with being at the end. And so like, we’re going to start with eight because you we know that you’re going to be impatient. And then all of a sudden, it was like literally, they had ripped pieces of my childhood and written about it and I’m like, how did you know those things? And then I was angry.

And then I was like, I need to know all the things. And then I was like, Oh my god, I’m never gonna know all the things and then and you know, then it gradually became like, okay, it’s okay if I don’t know all the things I’m going to take each thing as it comes and learn and use it and integrate myself and be better. But you know, it. It’s definitely something worth researching. You know, if there’s ever anything I can do, you know, I’m always you know, my doors always open to talk about it. Like said car seats. enneagram headloss. I’ll talk about all the time. I mean, all day, every day. So yes, definitely get started that get started, do a little bit of research. There’s so much out there and available. And if you ever have questions about you know, like, what’s credible, what’s not now feel free to reach out to me, of course, I’m opinionated because I’m an eight. But I really do like, again, have that five side where I’m like, nope, this has actually been blackjack, like, nope, this is there’s some basic science here. There’s some research and you know, and it really does, like I said, it’s amazing the difference that it can make once you give yourself the opportunity to learn and stop being cynical about it. Not everybody is going to look at it that way, but I certainly did. And so I’m glad that I was like, huffy and puffy and finally opened the book, but that’s a great place to start. And like I said, there’s tons of books but you know, definitely recommend, you know, a couple of those authors who are real, really experts. If you want to really really dig deep Beatrice chestnut is another author, ginger, I never say her name, right? Lapid bog I believe is another great like, if you’re having having a difficult time kind of figuring out okay what’s my tie she has some really great books of just wonderful questions to ask and say like okay Am I this somebody this like which one matters and then you know there and she’s also written some wonderful books about how you can really integrate that into you know your workspace and help it you know help you in a professional way as well so lots of lots and lots out there in the world and of course if I can ever help you know, in guiding somebody that would be my true pleasure.

Alyssa Patmos 1:35:29
I have experienced doing that outside of this conversation too, so I can attest to it. If someone does want to connect with you, what is the best way to do so?

Hannah Fryer 1:35:39
So um, honestly my website it’s totally again not .com if I were smoking I’m like, you know it but to me I’m like my company name is Brambling & Co so like makes perfect sense. I’m not a marketing professional clearly that was a silly choice but we’re here we’re sticking with it and by God I’m stubborn. So it’s got to be Brambling & Co so you can reach out for my contact form there. I’m on most social media I do check it and look at it and stalk it but I’m not necessarily always posting on it but you can always reach out. Facebook Messenger is a terrible way to reach me just in case you want to know because I don’t ever check that but you know Instagram message at Hannah and fryer or at brambling and co set you know, send me an email inquiry on the website. See? Easy peasy find me wherever you know. I’ll be here all week. Whatever it is that you know I’m just being weird and awkward. But um, yes, no, no, totally please feel free to reach out and you know, let’s have a conversation and you know, I can point you in the right direction or you know, if you decide that you need something, you know, in terms of more support or coaching or just kind of figuring it out I’m happy to happy to help. This certainly is something I’m so passionate about.

Alyssa Patmos 1:36:58
I love it. Love it. I love this conversation. Thank you so so much for being here.

Hannah Fryer 1:37:04
Oh truly my pleasure. Always.

Alyssa Patmos 1:37:07
And thank you for tuning in for watching. I hope you enjoyed it and I will see you next time. You’ve just finished listening to another episode of Make It Mentionable with me, your host, Alyssa Patmos. If you’re looking for more in between episodes, then sign up for The Peel. It’s my free newsletter that gives tips for how to navigate whatever life dishes and it’s also the place where I share the juiciest of stories. To check it out, head on over to Thank you so much for tuning in, and I’ll see you next time.

Transcribed by


Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Scroll to Top