When You Want to Change Directions with Stephanie King

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Changing directions can feel daunting at times. It’s like one part of you knows you need something new, but another part may be freaking out at the thought of switching things up. In this episode, Stephanie King joins me to co-host a conversation about how to change directions—especially if it feels overwhelming. 


Stephanie King is a long time entrepreneur and organic Skincare and Sugaring expert based in Parma, Italy. After almost a decade of running her brick and mortar businesses in the US she relocated abroad to start her training academy and skincare distribution business in the UK and EU. Stephanie is a champion for small business and bootstrap start ups in the beauty space and always on the look out for the next up and coming trend in the industry (and beyond). She happily resides in beautiful northern Italy with her husband and son but enjoys traveling back to the US as much as possible.

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Alyssa Patmos 0:04

This is Make It Mentionable.

I’m Alyssa Patmos and this is the show about being human in a world that encourages us to be robots.

I invite you to join me as we journey through the mess, the magic and the mania in between.

Because what we can talk about, we can manage.

This honest conversation extravaganza includes free flowing conversations and high doses of vulnerability to remind you that you aren’t alone.

No topic is off limits, and episodes are designed to leave you smarter, aka more self aware than when you came.

I am so glad you’re here.

Welcome back to Make it Mentionable.

I am here with Stephanie King today, who is a friend with a very interesting life.

Talking With Stephanie King About All The Ways She’s Pivoted In Her Life

So I’m super excited that we get to talk about about pivoting today and the multiple ways that you’ve shaken things up across your life.

And you know, in a podcast that is all about self awareness so that we can make more bold moves in life.

I love being able to get people’s perspectives who who embody that and who are willing to talk about all of the things in the messy middle, because that’s that’s kind of where we always are.

We’re kind of always in the messy middle.

So Stephanie, thank you for being here.

Stephanie King 1:37

Hello. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah.

Alyssa Patmos 1:41

So as always, for people who’ve tuned in before, they might know that I don’t like reading bios, I want to hear from you.

What do you want people listening to know to know about you, before we dive in?

Stephanie King 1:57

I guess the basics would be mainly I live in Italy.

Meet Stephanie King

So that’s something somewhat unique. I left the US about seven years ago, and started a company in the UK.

And then most recently, about a year ago moved to Italy. I live here with my husband and my five year old son. Business wise, I’ve been an entrepreneur for over 15 years now, which seems impossible.

I started in 2007, a tiny skincare studio in central Illinois, I had quit my job and found my passion in organic skincare.

And things just kind of took off from there.

So I’ve owned multiple businesses over the last 15 years in the Midwest in Portland, Oregon.

And I had a brick and mortar business there and product company, and then moved abroad open to distribution and training academy. And then now I’m living in Italy.

So I have done and dabbled in almost every kind of business model that you could possibly do making products, distributing products, teaching courses, service based business.

So I feel, you know, a very strong connection to, you know, this identity as an entrepreneur or being able to start things, grow things and have these ideas to kind of take them from little seed to fruition.

So it’s been interesting, and kind of a roller coaster of a journey.

Yeah, I am today, yeah.

Alyssa Patmos 3:33

The First Question For Stephanie: Do You Find It Easiest To Stop, Start, Or Change Something?

There’s one question something you were just saying reminds me of a question that I love to ask clients because it can lead a bunch of different directions.

And it’s do, do you find it easiest to start something to stop something? Or to change something?

Stephanie King 3:55

‘Start stop or change?’

Well, I’ll tell you what I am not the least the least good at is changing.

Okay. I’m a really strong initiator, so I can get things started.

But I’m also really good at stopping things when I don’t want to do them anymore.

I’ve sold three businesses now. I’ve closed other things that were profitable, but I just didn’t love it.

So I definitely value you know, as much as getting something up and running, knowing when it’s time to put it put it to rest.

Exploring What Brought Us To Make Our Life-Changing Pivots

Alyssa Patmos 4:32

Yeah, so that’s been done. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s interesting.

I think for me, changing things is is easier and, and it’s the like, it’s the stopping slash, like finishing like identifying when it’s good enough is a piece that I’m constantly working on in myself because I could be in the details of something for ever and never get to that point where it’s like got the stamp on it.

So what’s interesting for me in what you said, because we’re talking about pivoting today, which inherently is about embracing change.

So it sounds like the places went and correct me if I’m, if I’m making an assumption here. So it sounds like the times when you’ve really been willing to like change directions, and shift came more so from the certainty of wanting to stop, rather than comfort with change, would you say that’s accurate?

Stephanie King 5:36

Yeah, yeah.

I think that in every instance, where I’ve stopped something and moved on, it’s been a very, I don’t know how to describe it just a very specific moment where it was like, Okay, I’m finished with this, and I’m ready to move on with what’s next.

Think that I, the pattern I noticed with myself is I started things and I put a lot of energy and effort into them, and I can get a certain level of velocity going with them.

And then I do tend to get sometimes bored. And I think that’s where it comes in, where I’ll do make small changes and try and like, reinvigorate things.

But if I’ve attempted to reinvigorate something a couple times, and I’m just not, I’m just not feeling good, then then it’s kind of that moment where I know I have to move on.

Stephanie’s Decision To Move Her Family To Italy

Alyssa Patmos 6:25


So like, when you when you made the decision to move to Italy, when what was going on? What was going on then?

Stephanie King 6:42

COVID was going on, then, I have a whole flurry of kind of existential crisis, about what I wanted to be doing and where I wanted to be and what you know, you know, my business is based in the UK.

And like, everywhere else we had, what UK had very restrictive lock downs, the industry that I’m in was closed for seven out of 12 months.

So we were just there was just massive cash losses every month. So it was pretty devastating financially.


And I wasn’t sure whether I will be able to save the company or not.

And fortunately, that I was able to, and it is fine. And it’s functioning, which is great, and it’s rebounding.

But I think it was kind of a moment where I realized we realized as a family number one, we’re not English.

My son was born there.

My husband’s Italian.

And we were both my husband and I working from home.

And barely we were living in Brighton at the time. But prior to COVID I was traveling a lot and teaching and I was doing a lot of European visits and international work and stuff like that. But with COVID and Brexit it just kind of grounded us.

And so we were like, Why are we in England at home when we could be in Italy at home doing the same thing?

So it was very much just it was just kind of a moment where we just said let’s, let’s just do it.

And we’ll see what happens.

Ironically, my husband and I are both still working from home and mostly working in England online.

But so it didn’t work out the way we wanted it to. But yeah.

Alyssa Patmos 8:28

So something that you’ve told me in the past is is that you tend to know what you want.

And once you know as you go, you go after it and that’s something that I talked about, I end up talking about a lot because a lot of people don’t know what they want or and you and I were talking about this before to where it’s like there’s this craving a lot of times for this like complete and total certainty and for this like perfect knowing of where the fear has subsided and it’s just like I know what’s going on so so we have these two things we have this this first perspective where you’ve shared with me where it’s like it’s it’s fairly easy for you to know what you want in a lot of ways or or it’s come to you but then also this like delineation between when is the knowing enough and and not just waiting for this like complete crystal clear water?


So I want to pick your brain on this.

Like what is what do you think it is that has allowed you to be so confident in knowing and knowing what you want?

How Stephanie Finds The Confidence She Needs To Make Big Decisions

Stephanie King 9:49

I think that I’ve to a certain level.

I mean, I’ve made big moves, but I’ve stayed in an arena where I’m really confident and comfortable.

Oh, and I think in a lot of ways, I’ve had that safety net of knowing that I can re imagine something new, you know, the way I was working in Portland to the way I was working in England and the way I’m working now, they’re all different.

But I’m, I’ve been in the same space, of which I have mass mastery over what I’m teaching and my knowledge.

So I think it’s been comfortable in that way that I’ve always seen a lot of opportunity in my industry and felt like, I have the skill set and the like history and the knowledge and experience that I can just go over and start something new anywhere.

I mean, it was a little cocky for me to think I would like move to England and get things off the ground, it took longer than I thought it would, but it did ultimately end up you know, working.

But again, it was in an arena where I was really, really confident.

And I think where I’m at now is very different space of trying to figure out, you know, having a desire.

I feel like this work I’ve been doing for the last 15 years was like a series of mountains that progressively got harder and harder to climb.

And I do feel like, there aren’t any mountains left for me to climb in the space that I’m in now. And that’s scary, huh?

Stephanie King 11:24

That’s when it’s like, okay, I recognize now that I’m ready for a change, I’m ready to bring something new into my work.

And the way I’m like, you know, do I want to run another big business? Do I want to work with clients? Like, what is this next thing I want to do?

So there’s, I have a lot more ambiguity now.

Because it’s leap, it’s going into this space where I’m just like, I have no idea whether this will be received or whether I’ll be good at it, whether, whether it’s what I what I want.

So it’s like, I completely understand what you’re saying.

And I think it’s, I think this is the case for a lot of, I talked to so many women who say, I don’t know, if I don’t really want to do this anymore, whatever that may be, but I don’t know what I would do instead.

And I don’t even know where to begin trying to figure that out. Yeah, it’s like, totally understand that. So easier to just get up and keep doing what you’ve been doing.

Three Insights About Pivoting From Stephanie’s Experience

Alyssa Patmos 12:23


And a lot of ways Yeah, so there, this is like sending my mind of flurry.

So there are like three things that I want to bring up as a result of this.

So the first one is, I love what you said around in some of the changes in direction that you’ve made, like you stayed glued to the same industry, which I think you know, that can be a very grounding aspect.

And you know, in basketball, when a player’s down, at the end of the court, it needs to pivot so that they can like pass the ball.

And, or so they can shoot, you know, like one foot has to be planted.

And then the other foot is like looking for areas if you’re allowed to see different directions, because you can move the other foot.

And so I think that’s something that is is important, like when when we’re talking about making big changes, if we want to overhaul like our entire life all at once.

And we’re just like jumping with both feet, and one isn’t planted somewhere.

That’s more overwhelming.

And so it sounds like in that first transition, you had the foot planted in the industry.

So you could take confidence and scan for new perspectives within the industry like okay, what’s going to be different?

How am I How am I going to shift to this here?

But now what you’re talking about, is, is almost like, does it feel like you’re trying to then find what the grounding foot is going to be grounded in now?

Or do you do you know that?

The Truth Behind ‘Leap And The Net Will Appear’

Stephanie King 14:06

I think it’s like, you know, there’s that whole saying of like, leap and the net will appear.

And that seems like really exciting.

And I feel like you know, when I moved when I moved to England, I didn’t really know how to run, I didn’t know how to import I didn’t know how to run a distribution. I didn’t know how to do all of that.

And I didn’t have I didn’t have a huge financial like cushion to land on either. So that that felt like a leap and the net will appear kind of move for me.

But again, I have that kind of core like I’m going to talk about these things because I know them really well and eventually people will come around to my ideas.

I think the hardest part is now is this strong desire, like I’ve been learning so much and really trying to find what lights me up and what excites me and where I can envision myself next.

But then I have the safety of, I’m in this very safe space with the work I’m doing now.

And so yeah, I’m riding that fine edge of if keeping one foot planted there is so comfortable that it’s hard to consider how I will make the full kind of step over.

So it’s like there is this part of me that acknowledges there’s going to be some sort of your Stephanie’s this point in your life leap and the net will appear kind of thing that’s gonna have to happen.

Like that energy on some level has to come into play. But yeah, it’s difficult. It’s difficult to know how to do that. Yeah, I think it’s because I get I’m older now.

And I have a kid as well. So it’s not just me like, well, if I lose it all I’ll be fine, I think I have a job. I’ll start seeing clients again, I’ll figure it out.

How Can You Pivot When You Know Something’s Not Right, But You Don’t Know What You Want Instead?

Alyssa Patmos 16:00

Yeah, I think that’s a challenge for people like the way they’re like, Okay, I’m, I’m, I know, I’m not content.

I know, something has to change. I’m not entirely sure.

I think sometimes people say, I’m not entirely sure what I would want to do instead, I think other times people secretly know what they want to do instead, but it’s what you were just talking about where it’s like, but I have all these responsibilities.

And so it’s like, once the hell comes in, it’s like, but how am I? How am I going to do that. And so there’s this like, comfort piece.

And, you know, pivoting in general, is, is popular in the startup world where everything moves fast, you don’t know what’s working right away.

And so you’re pivoting, you’re pivoting quite frequently to try and save something.

Versus there’s also this proactive pivot, where it’s like, I can sense that something isn’t working.

And I want to change direction.

But then you’re also battling, you’re battling the comfort, the comfort and safety around around what is already there.

And I think that can stop a lot of people from from even looking for new possibilities.

How Do You Make A Change When You’re Comfortable — Even If You’re Not Happy?

Stephanie King 17:27

Yeah, I mean, I see this a lot in close friends of mine, and who have either corporate careers, or they’ve been, you know, coaches for 15 to 20 years.

And it, you know, once you have something that’s working well enough and generating income for you, and you’ve put all the systems in place, and it’s working fine enough.

And yet, there’s this feeling like a really, I don’t, I’m not loving this the way I should, or the way I want to love my work anymore.

That I see, I see a lot of people get stuck. And I see that in myself. But I also see it in so many of my friends.

And, you know, it’s like trying to rationalize staying, because it works well enough.

And staying because you have responsibilities, even though to a certain level, it starts to suck the life out of you.

Yeah, you know, it’s like, I think you were talking about like, proactively pivoting, which is such a better position to be in mentally than to wait until you’re so uncomfortable.

And that you can’t even will yourself to do the basic things that you need to do to run your business to say I give up and I’m gonna go find something else.

And I think in a lot of cases, when I’ve seen people do that, because I’ve worked with a lot of women in business over the years that end up kind of jumping to whatever is shiny and most immediately available next, because it’s like, I have to get out of this.

So I have to find something else right away.

And you know, it’s not necessarily going to carry you for the long haul.

Yeah, so I think that’s the the big challenge for me at the juncture I’m at now is like, I want to find what is for me.

For the next 15 years, maybe more.

I mean, I just changed everything every 15 years, but so it’s like, it feels like the stakes are really high to tune in to this kind of what is the work I’m going to be doing and where am I going to be focusing my energy in the longer term versus like, because there’s a lot of ways to make money.

Yeah, a lot of ways to say I’m not going to do this anymore, but I’m going to go over and start up this thing or, you know, I’m going to open up another Shopify site and start selling skincare products or you know.

Pivoting When You Don’t Have The Energy To Move Forward

Alyssa Patmos 19:58

Well I think that’s the [inaudible] I think I did a I did a podcast episode on overwhelm, and how overwhelm can creep in when we feel like there’s not enough choice.

So in some ways, the person who’s pivoting and are wanting to pivot, but they’re like what you said they haven’t left themselves enough energy to even to even do the basics there.

And so in a lot of ways, like they’re constricting choice, because it’s like, I have to get out of this, right freaking now.

And then on the flip side, it can come in when there’s too much choice.

And we’re like, okay, but the next 15 years is in front of me.

And, and now, now.

And so I talked about in that episodes, I think, like some constraints can be can be the answer where it’s like, okay, I’m not thinking about, like, reminding ourselves, it’s not like I’m changing where I’m living this exact second.

So like, right, that piece is, is grounded.

So I think there’s something that’s interesting to me.

With everything that you’ve been saying in like, identifying, where do you want the one foot to be planted?

And for you, like you said, it was in the industry for a long time.

And so I’m wondering, like, what are the what are some of the other things that that have mattered to you?

Like, aside from just the industry knowledge, because I’m wondering if there’s even like, I’m wondering if we can show people to how a pivot doesn’t have to be like, Okay, it’s all of a sudden, everything is new.

It’s like, maybe you also valued the freedom.

And so now, rather than the foot being planted in the industry, maybe it’s planted in the freedom of one business model.

And then it’s looking for, okay, well, what do I want to offer with this business model?

Stephanie King 22:00

Dreaming Bigger Even When The Stakes Of Change Are High

Yeah, yeah. I think about the business model component. Maybe to my detriment.

I have enjoyed trying out so many different business models and like trying on precise, what is the right kind of company for me, like, how do I work best? And what do I really thrive in?

And I noticed that so I’ve been spending the lat so since COVID, hit and then I had all this free time, I’ve been studying and studying like crazy.

I’ve done like extensive training, meditation, hypnotherapy, a couple coaching qualifications, I’ve done a lot of stuff.

And I’ve kind of went down this rabbit hole just kind of trying to sift through, like, what are the areas I’m interested in? Yeah. How could I envision myself working with people?

I’ve been taking some clients here and there and just like trying things on for size.

But there’s always, for me this component of what is the structure of this?

And how do I how do you structure and scale a business with this, because that’s been my history with starting a business is that it begins with me, then I need to bring other people into it, and it needs to expand and grow.

So I’ve always had teams.

I’ve never really I started alone when I first started in skincare, but it wasn’t alone for very long.

And I think that in thinking about this pivot, there is this part of me that’s like, oh, well, if I go back into this, I’m really alone.

Again, and it doesn’t have this business structure that I’m accustomed to.

And so I’ve been unpicking that a lot as to whether it’s like, does what I does the next step for me have to have the same structure as I’m accustomed to, or is that just what I’m used to?

Alyssa Patmos 23:52

And what what have you learned about this so far?

Stephanie King 23:56

I feel like this is like… I think I’m like really in the messy middle with this, because there is the part of me that feels really passionate about the everything I’ve been learning and like the impact I’m seeing on some of the things I’ve been sharing with people and that the and how they’ve impacted me and how I’ve been able to like really, really changed the way that I that I function through meditation and hypnotherapy and breathwork and all these things like it’s really changed my life dramatically.

And yeah, I think but then there’s this other entrepreneurial part of me that needs something to scale.

And that is that gets that is more getting in the way for me then freeing the way for me now so it’s like, for a while, that’s where I was planting my like, this whole idea of, you know, you have all these transferable skills no matter what you’ve been doing, like my friends worked in corporate for 20 years now.

And you know, she has these other ideas for starting a business.

And she’s like, I don’t really know what I’m doing.

I’m like, you’ve been traveling around the world negotiating millions of dollars of contracts, like in a week, you have all the skills, you need to start a business, because it’s all transferable.

Yeah, so I’m still very much trying to figure out where do I plant that foot?

What If Pivoting Feels Like Going Back To Square One?

Is it just embracing what feels like going back to a beginning?

And just be working with other humans one to one? Because that’s how I started or am I, am I just not seeing yet this bigger picture?

There’s this vision. Yeah. And that is like, I’m very torn on that.

And that is probably been my Achilles heel for like, not being able to fully move forward, maybe more than a lot of other things.

Alyssa Patmos 25:54

There’s a lot of nuances when when we’re thinking about making bigger life decisions like this, like, there’s a lot of nuance, because it it quickly shows us our shit is like, I don’t say like, there’s like, business and relationships show us our shit quicker than anything else.

Like it shows us where we have beliefs that are not totally supporting us.

It shows us where like our edges of where we’re comfortable, and how far we’re willing to push ourselves.

And when we’re thinking of making changes like this, like in your case, you know, shifting, shifting, not only industries, but potentially business models, like, yeah, overhauling it based on new interests in a lot of ways.

There’s a there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of nuance there.

And yeah, we live in a culture where there’s a lot of pressure to feel like we have to know those answers overnight, or like in three months.

And it’s been my experience, sometimes, like the incubation period for, for cultivating something new is is longer than that.

Give Your Ideas More Time To Incubate: Change Doesn’t Happen Overnight

And so that takes me back to you and what we were saying like if we can leave ourselves enough choice in doing what we’re doing now to allow more opportunity, like, yeah, and that incubation period, I think it can really help.

But what have you notice, like, What is your perspective on this unfolding period?

Versus like, hustle culture must know the answer tomorrow?

Stephanie King 27:38

Stephanie’s Journey As A Recovering Hustler

Well, I mean, like, I’m a recovering hustler.

And like, as you were talking, I was thinking about how much I have wrapped my identity up in that.

And this whole thing of like, needing to build a company and scale a company and have a team and like, that’s very, that’s a very ego-ic part of my identity, like to be seen as an entrepreneur to be able to build things and to get like, I’ve always received positive feedback in that respect, getting taking something and getting it off the ground on my own, you know, and so it’s like, that’s a huge nuance for me of like just trying to unpick, how much of that is just me being attached to, you know, that’s an area where like, I know, I can do it well, and I know that people will praise me for being able to do it well.

And I like to be praised for like, my ideas and being able to build stuff.

It’s so there’s that. And then there’s the other part that’s like, do I care about that anymore? Does that matter anymore? How do I know whether that matters? Or doesn’t matter anymore? What will it feel?

And I think because I’ve been playing in this space of just letting my businesses run and like teaching online here and there, and just like things have been really, really chill.

It’s been easier to easier, like, I haven’t been able to, like public, I have not yet kind of publicly tried that, that on to see like, what does it feel like to step out and say, like, I’m going to be doing this thing.

And I’m going to let let go of these things, or I’m going to retire from these things.

Hustle Culture: Exhausting But Also Exhilarating

And I’m not going to be important in these ways, which I’ve been important in for so long, or have been, you know, that people have thought of me, like, I’ve always thought of as a hustler.

And I’ve always identified until it was like, you know, I remember when everything was like, you know, cancel hustle culture and like and the hustle and I was so burnt out at that time.

I was like, exactly. We’re hustling too hard. And you know what I like? I’m burnt myself out my hormones at like, we’re all out of whack.

I mean, it has suffered the consequences of that very badly. But there is always that little have, you know, part of me that love the adrenaline of that ride? And it’s like, Am I ready to let that go?

But so it’s hard to, you know, I know you love doing parts work and stuff.

Like, it’s hard to differentiate sometimes what is authentic to where you’re at now, right, versus this is what I know.

And this is what I know, gives me the feedback I want. I’m gonna go and do that again.

Alyssa Patmos 30:28


And so I think another layer to this question is, is that the feedback that we still need, because I faced this when I like, officially, sort of, like, again, nuance in the middle, when I, when I stopped copywriting and doing web design and as much brand strategy and switched into coaching.

I had the same thing I was like, but coaching around around brand strategy I love and I like I love helping people write better, and it’s like, are you it’s, and I was really good at it.

And so the same thing, like, I felt important. There were places where I felt good. And, and I was praised for for what I did there. And those things were great. And then and then this question.

I wrote a blog post about this, I think it was probably like, two, two and a half years now.

And this question keeps popping up during this conversation.

Pivoting Often Asks This Question: ‘Are You Willing To Be A Beginner Again?’

And it’s like, are you willing to be a beginner again, and in so many ways, when you go to being a beginner, and it’s like, you get the high of studying and learning something new?

Yeah, it’s great to be a beginner.

When it’s then right past that phase of being a beginner, but it’s like, okay, now I’m gonna go stand out on my own as a beginner again, and it feels like you’re truly at square one that can back in suck.

The the shift that I had to remember is like, what, what you were talking about with transferable skills, like, it’s really not, it’s really, it’s really not the beginning and complete square one, like we have a ton of experience.

It’s one of the things that pisses me off about online, like coaching programs and courses, like specifically around business, I feel like it’s a bunch of people who just wanted to be teachers when they were younger.

And it’s teaching elementary kids, but we’re adults, and we have a ton of life experience to bring to whatever we’re doing now.

So like, can we bake that in please, in some sort of way? I think that would be more, more helpful. So the FOMO.

Stephanie King 33:05

So, with your own, you know, personal attributes involved?

And so…

Alyssa Patmos 33:09

Yes, but this question of like, are we willing to be a beginner again?

And, and, and the previous question around, is it still the type of feedback that we need, because there came a point where I was like, Wait, I don’t, I don’t need that praise in the same sort of way.

Like, I don’t need another certification, to feel like I can do what I want to do.

And like I’m valuable, like, but those are conditioned responses, it’s easy to fall back into thinking that we need that.

Have you noticed anything around this mild rant I just went on in?

Stephanie King 33:56

Oh,, absolutely, I and I’ve noticed I think like I’ve noticed for myself this because I’ve been kind of like reaching this point where I’m really trying to figure out what’s gonna happen what’s gonna come next what what is the next iteration of things look like?

I’ve totally retreated. So like I don’t I’m not been on social media all that much anymore.

I’m not posting I’m not like putting up you know, any kind of stories or talking about, you know, things I’m up to or working on or growing.

And I have noticed that when I you know, just want to like put up something that might be just like a little riff like today, I was on a webinar about the EU trade deal and it was really irritating.

And so I started to write this post about it and it was just, you know, nothing all that interesting that I was like working on or growing and then I just deleted it. I was like, Oh, this is really boring. I don’t want to put it up.

And so I have noticed that I really have only been putting myself out there in a lot of ways, if I, if I know that it’s kind of in line with what people have expected from me, otherwise, I’m just like, let me just try it out because nobody really knows what I’m up to.

Alyssa Patmos 35:13

Okay, can we talk about to talk about this?

Feeling The Pressure To Show Up The Way People Expect You To

Because I have done the same thing so many, so many times more often than I would like to admit, like it.

To me, it feels like there’s pressure to if I’m gonna put myself out there and like, because I do sell things, like, I need to have this like, polished image so people can know, like, what I’m doing, which, in some cases, makes sense.

But at the same time, how do you do that? Like, how can we have that expectation of ourselves when we’re also like, a personal brand? And it’s, and it’s you? And like, Where does this pressure come from, of this, like, desire to hibernate?

Unless it’s all picture perfect.

Stephanie King 36:04

I don’t know, what I’ve known.

I have noticed the phenomenon with me that I fall, I tend to follow a lot of people who are just like blowing up Instagram all the time.

They’re always on, they’re always posting, it’s not polished.

It’s like, they’re just saying whatever is on their mind, and I noticed how attracted I am to that, you know, to as a lurker, yeah,

Alyssa Patmos 36:27

I am a stage 5 lurker.

Stephanie King 36:33

And then I’m like, Yeah, look, she just posted, you know, this random thing about, you know, whatever.And I don’t know, I that I do get in my head about that sometimes, because I started to think, you know, I’ve always kind of had a thing to sell.

So it’s like, I have this knowledge. And I can offer you these trainings, you know, you can book me for these things.

But I’m really kind of selling this concept and like this organic skincare, and sugaring and all this other stuff.

So it’s like, I’ve kind of had something to stand behind for a really long time. And so I didn’t really have to put my self forward in a personal way.

Yes. And that was an I love that. And now I am on, you know, you’re on social media all the time. And you’re kind of like, I don’t know if that were that strategy.

There’s like that thought process of like, I don’t know if that strategy works anymore, that you can just be anonymous and not be like really putting yourself out there.

And then the other part of me is like, well, of course you can you can do whatever the hell you want.

In your business, you just have to find a clever enough way to do it.

But yeah, so I’ve been I’ve been like, lurking on social media now for over a year, just doing absolutely nothing.

And sometimes I’m like, you know, we just went to Tuscany and went camping last weekend.

And I was like, a normal person would just take nice photos and put them on their Instagram, but I can’t even be bothered to do that.

Like, what is your –

Alyssa Patmos 38:06

I know we’re –

Stephanie King 38:07

gonna build a new business.

If I don’t eat, you can’t even do these like basic things.

So there’s a whole, you talked about the messy middle, it’s like, trying to feel your way through, like how to function in a different way.

Yeah. And like, all the stuff that comes up with that is just, well,

Alyssa Patmos 38:25

The Role Of Parts Work In Pivoting

That’s why that’s why a lot of parts work.

Because the amount of times that both of us have said like part of me feels one way and part of me feels the other way throughout this conversation.

Like that’s the stuff where when we can like, integrate those pieces and understand what each part is trying to do for us, it becomes much easier to move to move forward.

I think for me, like I had to give, I had to give like the part that didn’t want to be on social media like full rein, for months.

And I read Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport, which is really awesome.

It talks about using social media intentionally.

So that you know we can, we can reclaim our attention because they want us to stay there for forever.

So it’s like, okay, if we decide that we value the connections that social can bring for business, then what is the best way we can use social where it’s not just falling into everything that they want us to do in the app, like watching 50 stories when we sign in or just scrolling ad nauseam?

Like, how do we use it more intentionally?

So but he talks about needing a detox period to truly understand how you want to show up there and to have the discipline to come back in a disciplined way.

And so I haven’t been on social for like four months.

And I feel guilty about it because I’m like, Sir, sir, I promote the show in different ways.

But I also know that having it on social is great, and I’m like, Well, I haven’t done as much of that and it’s like guilt creep.

seem to feel like we got to plaster things everywhere.

And I just, I just am not convinced that that’s the only way to do things.

We’re Not Convinced We Have To Do Things The Way They’ve Been Done Before

Stephanie King 40:12

I agree. I’m not convinced. I agree totally.

I feel like yeah, I feel your same doubt about that.

But there’s always this thought process of like, How can this be done differently than it’s being done now?

What what do I have to opt into? Because what, you know, when I started my first business, I had like a flip phone and a paper calendar.

And I remember when Instagram came out, and my business was doing really well. And I was just like, I don’t want to do this thing. Like, I don’t want to do this Instagram thing.

And you know, shortly thereafter, someone took my business name, and I was like, you can’t take my business, you know, you can’t steal my business name. But sure enough, I was like, away, I looked like everybody’s getting on Instagram.

The Reason We All Have a Graveyard Of Unused Digital Courses

But it’s like, in business, it’s so easy, especially with social media, I find to just glob on to like what everybody else is doing and be like, Okay, this is the formula. This is why we buy courses.

This is why the, the, you know, create a course I mean, every course you can buy, have that respect, I’ve bought, like I own, I wouldn’t even want to venture a guess in the money I’ve spent, or the Logins I have.

You have? Like, I have to know what’s inside there.

There could be like one magic bullet and you know, through them, do you ever even finish them? Not really.

But, you know, this whole multibillion dollar industry thrives on, like showing you how to structure and set things up.

And I really want to personally get back to just tuning into what I think is a creative idea.

And doing things differently, if that’s what I want to do, but it is exceedingly hard in the environment that we’re in, because there are certain ways that things work in business, that, you know, they’re difficult to overcome, if you’re gonna go right, in that hole, like, Well, why swim upstream, when you can just get on a raft and float down with the rest of us.

And it’s like, because

Alyssa Patmos 42:17

my soul is gonna die if I don’t

think the annoying part is I think, sometimes we don’t recognize that and like, honor the creative impulse, until we get to that point where it’s like, if I don’t do this differently, My soul is just gonna scream at me.

The Power Of The Proactive Pivot

And that’s where, like, the proactive pivot is always so interesting to me.

Because if if I sensed that coming, it’s like, okay, what is something I can shift now to get me more in alignment with that direction, so that I don’t cut off my like, support.

Feeling constricted, three, three months from now.

But there is so much of a formula across multiple areas of life.

And you know, in times, like, time, certain mental models are really helpful to help us do like, not have to make so many decisions.

And if there is a blueprint, it can be really helpful.

But it’s choosing the blueprint, because we know it’s actually going to work for us. And it feels in alignment, rather than just choosing the blueprint, because it’s the most popular one.

And I think that’s the piece where coming back to knowing it’s it’s being able to give ourselves the flexibility to try things on and do it our own way, with enough time to see if it actually works.

Because otherwise it feels like these other things are like this shiny object where everything feels like a shortcut.

And like we naturally want shortcuts. Yeah.

But the short cut doesn’t always pay dividends in the same way that like honoring our knowing does.

Yeah, yeah. And standing there, like in that middle ground of I think this is why community is so important.

And hearing when other people struggle through it, it’s like, we can put on an image of having everything figured out.

But then behind the scenes be like, What is going on?

I think that’s a lot of people. Or, or we can be honest about it, and like and have conversations and I think that makes it I think it makes it easier and it allows us to it allows us to to be more to be more flexible, which I’m constantly going for like flexibility is the IS is how I think how you hold power more so than anything else.

Bringing Humanity Back To Business (+ Life In General)

Stephanie King 44:59


And I think I noticed that people who I work with, and have like the best relationships with and have the best experiences with our, you know, coaches, teachers, mentors, people who do show more of their just like humanity then being like, this is the structure, this is how I show up, I always look this way.

You know, it’s like, if you’re just having a terrible day, and you need to cancel on me last minute, like, I almost appreciate just being honest. More so because it feels it feels more, it’s so much more relatable and real that like, everybody is just doing the like running a business is not easy, and everybody’s doing the best that they can.

And I think I hope that we’re coming away from that kind of time period where everything, you know, it’s like, this long stretch of time where it was like, everybody was extremely polished, it was all about, you know, sharing your numbers and you know, your your six figure this or 10k this or you know all about trying to break down and prove what you were doing and how, you know, effortless it was for you when I have always kind of sat to the side and been like, is it though?

I mean, maybe for some people it is.

The Difference Between Knowledge, Wisdom, And Insight (You Can’t Buy Them All In An Online Course)

Alyssa Patmos 46:21

But there’s another thing I’m obsessed with here that that I think you’re hinting on, which is there’s, there’s a difference between knowledge and wisdom, and insight.

And what I’ve seen is this rush to like, let me show you everything I know.

Let me put it on an Instagram square, like, let me just like shove everything I know, down your throat. And there’s this like, emphasis on knowledge and just like gaining more information, rather than like, what do you embody?

And, and I always learned way more from the people who truly embody their craft and are willing to show you the ways where they’re tested in their own tools. Like yeah, I much prefer to tell people how, how, okay, I was tested in this way, I did not handle it perfectly.

But I bounced back faster. And I bounced back faster, because of the tools that I have under my belt and like, I love sharing those with people.

Like, have you noticed something similar?

Hard Truth: Stop Trying To Become An Industry Expert

Stephanie King 47:33

Yeah, and I think I feel like right now there is this big surge of like, take a one day course, start a new Instagram page, become an expert in new said thing, begin, start before you’re ready, fake it till you make it.

Everybody becoming an expert in things and so fast.

Now, and I get a little bit triggered by that.

Because I am just slower moving in terms of like, I do think that you need to really understand what you’re talking about.

And I just really value time, invested in, as you said, embodying it, I can, you know, I’ve done a lot of trainings, but that doesn’t mean I’m in a position to start offering things immediately.

Because perhaps I haven’t been on the receiving end of some of the things or I haven’t, you know, my meditation teacher is amazing.

And but he’s been meditating for 15 years. And I’m not saying I need to meditate for 15 years to be a good teacher.

But some of the concepts that he talks about, I still have not fully under, fully under, I still don’t fully understand them, because I haven’t spent enough time with them yet.

So be very easy for me to start a new Instagram page tomorrow and start teaching the Dantec meditation based on my training manual. But I have not spent the time to really understand how that’s impacted me in my life and how that can potentially help somebody else.

And I think as we talked about, like pivoting this, this is definitely a I was speaking to someone who does human design and she was talking about how some people are just really confident in like taking basic knowledge and beginning to charge for it and sell it immediately and just and just get it going.

And I was like that is not me like I am not that person at all. And and she was like, do you get really triggered by that? And I’m like I do, like people calling themselves experts immediately. I do get triggered by that.

And so it’s like anything, I’m just like, unpicking it is it my problem that someone wants to start a business when they have you know what I consider basic level knowledge.

No, it’s not but how how do you go that fine line of wanting to do some They knew and, and kind of, for lack of better word like anointing yourself that you’re ready, like, I’m ready, I have the experience, I have the lived experience, you know, I have used these tools, they have impacted me in these ways, and I know what’s possible with them?

How do you then like, self proclaim that you are officially good enough to, you know, begin selling these things and offering these things?

Alyssa Patmos 50:29

Yeah, I know like the it’s, it’s interesting because what you’re saying about your meditation teacher, for example.

So like, in a lot of ways, like you probably know more about meditation than I do, because you’ve gone through a training on it.

And so you can help me understand different things there.

So So I think sometimes we stop ourselves, because it’s like, oh, this other person has been studying it for forever, we can see like, the nuances there.

And so sometimes we can stop ourselves from from showing up and helping others because it’s like, well, I’m not at that point yet.

But, but I also agree with you that it’s not just this like instantaneous, like, okay, absorbed knowledge.

And now, I know exactly what that means.

It All Comes Down To Nuance

And I think that the nuance there again, like everything comes down to nuance.

And if people talked about nuance more, we might all feel more understood.

And seen. Yeah. The nuance here —

Stephanie King 51:34

is like, everything’s not black and white.

Alyssa Patmos 51:37

And we, because it’s also like, Okay, I’m sure there are pieces of the meditation world, where you have integrated them, and where it completely makes sense to you.

And so, for me, it’s always been the question of, of assessing and becoming aware of that, like, before I talk on something, is this something where I feel like it’s integrated?

And if so, like, Great, I’m just going to roll off my tongue.

If it’s something that I’m still learning and sorting through, I think it’s absolutely okay to tell someone that and to be like, Okay, this is a technique that I have seen work in many different ways.

It’s something that I’m still sorting through personally, but here’s how I know. It can help. And here’s what we’re going to try. And like, allowing for the experimentation and that and sharing openly. I like that approach.

What do you like that approach?

Stephanie King 52:35

I agree, and like you’re really touching on the fact that, you know, at some point, you do need to begin to work with people and practice to hone your skills. So they don’t, they don’t just come to you because you’ve been working them with yourself, you don’t get enough diversity of experience.

Finding The Point Where We Do Know Enough

Alyssa Patmos 52:52

that there is a point when we do know enough.

And we we have to start because the hibernating and just keeping it to ourselves.

Like the hoarding of content, the hoarding of insight, which I’m a recovering content hoarder, the amount of notes on my phone is insane.

And when you when you do that, like that’s not serving the world with your gifts. And isn’t, there’s so much beauty in experiencing other people for their gifts.

And I hate that we live in a world that suffocates them at times. So, so for you, this new gift avenue that you’ve discovered, like taking all these courses, doing all of these studies, in the in the semi downtime.

I know you’ve come across meditation, because we’ve talked about that you’ve mentioned breath work.

I know you’ve studied NLP throughout these years.

So So which avenue is like really speaking to and it can be all three, but like, what really has been pulling the soul strings and it’s like, Oh, I could see my gifts here.

What what’s been like?

Stephanie King 54:12

I think more than anything, probably hypnotherapy.

I have to say, though, I did this amazing program for meditation and just fell in love with it so much.

And I kind of set it to the side.

And I’ve been, you know, using a lot of what I learned and now I’ve just started again with my, my teacher and some of the groups that I had previously.

And so that’s really getting reinvigorated for me in my former, you know, like before all of the businesses stuff.

I had such a strong interest in yoga and meditation was a huge part of my life in my 20s, and it was what I thought I would do with my life and then I went a different direction.

And so every time I touch on that That kind of starts a little spark into a flame again that there’s, it’s really rich for me there’s a lot to learn.

And so I know there’s kind of a something over there that that is for me, but I have to explore it more and see where I fit into it.

But hypnotherapy has been so fascinating.

And I have received so much insight, and been able to change some really ingrained patterns, and been able to really, like, create so much more spaciousness in my life.

And in my mind from being on the receiving end of hypnotherapy, I just find it really powerful and like completely underserved.

That I just don’t, my teacher is amazing.

And she’s training her shift, she guides, really beautiful training.

And a lot of the people coming out of that training are starting new practices and stuff like that.

So I think like, they’ll be more people coming into the space.

And I know you’re trained quite a bit in hypnotherapy as well.

So I’m curious about that.

There’s so much to learn that it is one of those things that it’s hard to just like, stop and go, Okay, let me take what I know and begin here.

Because it’s like, Oh, what’s this technique?

Oh, what’s this technique how to. And so I have to, I think that’s something that I’m playing around with, I have said, I’m going to, you know, start taking clients and see how things go.

And then I kind of retreated from that a little bit.

Because in this whole space of really, I gave myself kind of a time container.

When I kind of came to the point where I was like, okay, like, it’s time for me, something new is coming, I have to figure out what that is.

Fortunately, I can let these other systems run and I can do this work and like, I can pay my bills, thankfully, while I go on this journey, but I had kind of always given myself this time container, randomly until well, it’s not randomly, something astrological.

But now of course, I can’t remember what until May of next year, May of 2023.

So I had said, you need to figure out your shit before May of 2023.

That’s a long enough to do training that’s long enough to play around, you can move to Italy, trying to figure out how to speak Italian in the meantime.

And so every time I edge towards like, Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and get started, there is this little voice that calls me back and is like, or you could just keep like doing what you’re doing.

And just enjoy. I’m really enjoying where I’m at right now in the space of exploration and, and non commitment.

Hmm. It feels good, right?

Like next week, I might feel totally different.

But that’s how I feel about it. Now.

Alyssa Patmos 57:56

I love that.

And I love that you brought that up because I had a similar thing like I didn’t, I wrote emails, I started things, but I wasn’t I didn’t like actively sell something new for like a year and a half.

Choosing Exploration And Enjoyment

Because I had stuff like I was interested and I wanted to explore unfortunately, I was in a position where I didn’t have to.

And I think sometimes we put pressure on where it’s like, we’ve, we’ve created a situation where we can do that.

But then we don’t ever allow ourselves to do it.

And so like, yeah, it becomes a what’s the point question, but, but I love that where it’s like you, we don’t have to be performing for other people like constantly, all the time, we can allow, like exploration and evolution and involution and all the things within ourselves.

And when we do that we do come out differently in a much more embodied perspective.

And I think it helps people even even more because someone being in your presence, just in an embodied space, even if you’re absolutely teaching them nothing, just seeing how you respond and react to the world from this like, meditative contemplative way becomes a shifter for people.

And it doesn’t even have to be this like proving yourself point.

Yeah, yeah.

Our Definition Of Truly Living

So I think it’s beautiful that you’re in this space where, like, you’re, you’re enjoying all of your interests.

Like, I feel like that’s truly living.

I think that’s if beautiful,

Stephanie King 59:35

really good.

And you know, it’s been very healing as well because I’ve had a longtime relationship with like, just high adrenaline, high cortisol 67 coffees a day.

You know, just like my relationship with running a business is one of like, intensity and you know, constant striving and goal setting and never getting in no never moving fast enough.

And that took a big toll on me physically, emotionally, mentally.

When I was in it, I love it.

I mean, there’s so much, so much excitement around it.

But I really, I really had to stop and take a break and assess where a lot of that was coming from, like, what is behind you were talking about before.

It’s like, of course, like, you can acknowledge that it’s nice that people say you do a good job, and they praise you and oh, they think you’re like such a hustler.

And so you know, all these things.

But it’s also like, why do I need to be that charged up all the time.

That’s not healthy.

But it’s serving some sort of purpose for me.

And so it’s like I, I feel in a lot of ways I had to just completely unwind.

And I’m in that other end of the space where my life feels fairly relaxed.

And I don’t need to be charged in that way every day.

I miss it sometimes, because I’m like, I wish I could just like get my hands on something exciting, you know.

But it’s like, I think for me, it’s been a very healing experience to just be like, this is where I’m at right now.

I don’t really know what I’m, I’m not showing up in the way people maybe are accustomed to seeing me.

And I’m just retreating a bit. And I’m okay with it.

Most days. Most days, I’m okay with it. But it still has like its claws in me.

And just the other day, someone texted me and said, Oh, I haven’t spoken to you in forever.

And I was asking so and so about you.

And she said, Well, you’re busy.

She You seem busy, but nobody really knows what you’re doing.

So true. I don’t even know what I’m doing.

Like, but like,

Alyssa Patmos 1:01:59

you know, what?

And then I’m like, okay, but like, just like you as a human are so fun to interact with.

So like, why do we get so we get so concerned with like what people are doing instead of just like who they are.

It’s, it’s insane.

And I have the same.

I had a similar experience with the voice in the back of your head where it’s like, okay, you gave yourself the constraint of May of next year.

And then but something like will light a fire one day.

And it’s like, oh, like I could start this because when I’m good at taking initiative, it’s like, okay, I can start this, I can go do it like I’m scrappy.

And then, like hearing that voice come in.

For me it started happening where when I, when I was in more of the break period before starting the show.

There were some things that I was interested in, I wanted to start, and then I would, I would be like, Okay, make a plan for tomorrow.

This is what I’m going to do.

I would wake up sick the next morning.

And this happened in a pattern.

And it was like, I guess I’m not doing that today. And I felt insane.

Because I was like, Am I making this up? Can I not just like, do something?

Oh, can I not just like what is wrong with me?

That I can’t start this like, am I manifesting?

Like, is this self sabotage? Or is this like, support that I don’t know, that I need? So I can heal this like, thing in me that like needs to do? Constantly?

Stephanie King 1:03:33

Oh, my gosh, I know exactly what you’re talking about it it’s such a phenomenon to to just be like, I cannot make myself do things.

Yeah. Either way to be able to make myself do things. Yes. At any cost.

It was like, but I and that’s under some days that scares me where I’m just like, Wow, you’re really not going to do that.

Like, yeah, you’re really not going to do what you you know, you said you were going to do this week at all stuff, but you’re not going to do any of that.


Alyssa Patmos 1:04:06

It can be it can be a scary place. For sure. And then and then I think it loosens and I think the constraints are good.

I think like when we again like when we can be anchored in something or have a grounding in something like for you the constraint is made next year then it’s like, okay, release the pressure to like know anything officially.

Yeah, for that and allowing that.

So we’ve been across the board.

Go ahead go Yeah.

Trusting In The Dry Spell

Stephanie King 1:04:35

I was just gonna say I think it’s also just about having had enough experience to trust that you know, when that feeling comes in, that’s like, okay, oh, if time like that will arrive like trusting in the dry spell.

Yeah, that that feeling will return and that you will get your mojo back or that you will get this like download or this You know, you know that feeling that feeling where you’re like, I know exactly what I’m going to do.

And you wake up the next day and you’re not sick, and you do it.

And you do it and you do it until it’s done.

Yeah, that part of me has been dormant for a little bit because I haven’t been initiating anything, but I just have to really trust that she’s there.

And she will know like that, like, if she will get lit up, and know when it’s time to like, initiate.

I hope I’m right about that.

Alyssa Patmos 1:05:32

I think I think like the attitude that we have towards these situations totally matters.

Like it’s really easy to get into a negative attitude around like, Oh, my God, I’m not doing anything and like, be really hard on ourselves.

But when we, I think when something like captivates our attention in a way that we can’t ignore.

Yeah, yeah.

All of that all of that shifts.

So I think that what you said like trust is such a huge factor and being able to trust ourselves and to trust ourselves going against the formula, like we were talking about earlier, like, so much of the world snaps to a formula because it mitigates risk.

It mitigates uncertainty.

And as humans, we naturally are not comfortable with uncertainty.

And yet, it’s the only thing that’s constant.

And so cultivating this sense of trust that that allows us to move more fluidly in the world.

And here and get in touch with things that are outside the formula.

I think it’s one of the greatest tests, but like, also one of the biggest rewards.

And it’s difficult.


And beautiful.

It’s complex, like everything.

So we have gotten across the board in this conversation, which I always love when that happens when people come on.

Key Takeaways From This Conversation

But some of the key things for me are just the examples around like, Okay, if someone wants to pivot, there’s, there’s recognizing that we might be battling complacency, or we might be battling and going up against feelings of comfort.

And so what is comfort mean, to me might be a good question for people to ask, and where am I going to source comfort, and then planting our foot and like we can have our, we can decide that a foot is going to be planted or that we’re going to be anchored in numerous areas, it doesn’t always have to be the same one that it’s always been.

But having something anchoring us, you know, can can help bring insight rather than just like completely leaping out of nowhere.

And then, and then also what you were just saying around trust, and, and being able to be in uncomfortable places and sitting in the discomfort, even though most people around you are unwilling to do that.

Those are like the three big things that have jumped out from me in this conversation.

Is there anything that you want to add like anything that then

Stephanie King 1:08:24

No, I guess maybe more than anything, for someone listening who’s maybe been in a similar position, or been doing the same thing for a really long time that you can begin the journey of discovering what else you’re interested in, in the ever so smallest way without making huge changes.

And I think that’s with a lot of people that I’ve spoken to who’ve told me it’s not possible for me to change, it’s because they haven’t found a way to just crack the door open a little bit and start exploring.

And that could be as simple as like reading a new book, or like signing up for a class on something you’ve been randomly interested in.

Since you’re 18 years old, it’s like, doesn’t have to be aligned specifically with what you think you want to do with work.

It’s just, I think, opening that space to be like, I’m going to begin I’m going to be a learner again, and I’m going to see what excites me because I’ve done a lot of learning over the last couple of years that like didn’t stick didn’t resonate.

You know, it’s not that you just know immediately so I think it’s it can be an exciting journey of discovery, however uncomfortable and it can be slow.

And I think I almost think especially you know, for me it like in my you know, I’m I’m 43 I have a kid I’ve been very comfortable in terms of how I’ve structured my business so far like it is a it does feel in some ways like this little voice of like it’s just irresponsible to like try and make a bunch of changes right?

But now at this juncture in your life, but it’s not irresponsible to take a moment to start to kind of discover what else you want to do.

So I guess that’s my parting advice based on my experiences just dipping a toe in and, you know, I

Alyssa Patmos 1:10:16

love that you talked about macro pivots all the time.

Macro Versus Micro Pivots

I think that’s like the startup land, like in the word pivoting in general, it’s around like these huge macro pivots, but like micro pivots are where the magic lies, where it’s like, yeah, I’m gonna read a fiction book instead of a book, and I’m gonna let my imagination go places.

So I love that.

I love that you brought that up.

Stephanie King 1:10:41

Thanks so much.

This was so fun.

Alyssa Patmos 1:10:43

Yes, thank you for being here.

And thank you for tuning in.

I will catch you next week with another episode of Make It Mentionable.

You’ve just finished listening to another episode of Make It Mentionable with me, your host, Alyssa Patmos.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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